A reply:
"As Dr. Khullar says - there is nothing WRONG with deciding to lower them
in rank - it is everyone's choice as to what to do. However I believe the
statement that it is difficult to identify them [and without knowing
altitude] does not reflect reality. They are normally immediately and
easily identifiable - as I mentioned before. This is why A. tibeticum was
recognised as a species by Lin, You-Shin, who is a competent pteridologist
and specialist in Adiantum - and it appears rather obviously sufficiently
distinct to be more appropriately and practically ranked as a recognisable
species. It was only that the two photos were inadequate that made these
particular photos difficult to identify (and we still don't know if the two
were the same plant or not!). True, frond-size in a full-sized specimen is
important, but nearly all the other diagnostic features have been ignored
by that statement.
The reason for confusion there is that in his previous accounts Khullar had
the descriptions and names transposed, and on my pointing this out, the
next mention had partly mixed characters. This was why they may have
seemed to be more difficult to identify than they actually are. The
characters are easy and I can usually spot them from a distance. Let's
have it the right way round and clear now - I think that would be the most
helpful thing to do - as a summary:.
A. venustum - large, more erect and more herbaceous frond (usually 30-40
cm. when full grown), with many pinnae and masses of segments; segments
smaller, narrower, often rather asymmetrical, teeth at the apices long,
narrow, markedly flabellate [but as there are some fronds where the teeth
don't develop properly, one then needs to look at another frond where they
are properly developed]. More of a high-forest species.
A. tibeticum - small, stiffer frond (usually up to c. 20 cm. when full
grown), with few pinnae and not an abundance of segments; segments larger,
obviously wider, usually symmetrical, teeth at the apices acute but with
wide bases, so rather widely deltate, thus not appearing flabellate.
Usually above the forest line among rocks.
One has to be careful about the occasional fronds that occur in A.
venustum where the teeth don't develop much - but one can then find them
better on another frond of the specimen. Sometimes they get even narrower
and longer than usual in some populations of A. venustum (described as A.
fimbriatum, a synonym of A. venustum) and are then very easily
recognisable.
One comes across A. venustum much more commonly in the Central
Himalaya (Pithoragarh to Sikkim), with A. tibeticum rare and right up on
the edge of the dry inner-Himalayan zone - but in the West Himalaya and in
the dry zones of the NE in Bhutan, A. tibeticum is more common or equally
common to A. venustum.
Hope this helps to clarify them. There are about 4 or 5 species in
the whole A. venustum group - but so far I can only recognise these two in
the Indo-Himalaya though I have seen all the relevant herbaria for Indian
ferns and plodded all over the Himalaya.
Chris F.-J."
On 18 September 2012 18:08, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote:
> A reply:
>
> "Since it is difficult to say with any amount of assurance to which
> species they belong to, unless the altitude and size of the fronds
> are mentioned, to guess (?) the name of the species even by experts of
> the stature of Mr C R FRaser-Jenkins, why have them as two species?
> Why not treat these as A. venustum subsp. tibeticum and the other as
> sub sp venustum. What's wrong with this treatment?
> S P Khullar"
>
> On 17 September 2012 13:36, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A reply:
>> "Incidentally, it is usually easy to distinguish Adiantum venustum from
>> A. tibeticum, which is why the latter as described as a species, not
>> subspecies, which I personally prefer to maintain (as with other species in
>> that group, like A. davidii etc.). Some previous confusion led to
>> perceived difficulty in telling them apart.
>> In this case, difficulty lies in the inadequate photographs, rather than
>> any overlap of the two species.
>> So are they the same plant or not? - As someone says, they do look a bit
>> as if they might be off different plants, though difficult to see.
>> Chris F.-J. "
>>
>> On 15 September 2012 12:04, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> A reply:
>>> "THIS IMAGE IS CERTAINLY NOT ADIANTUM CAPILLUS-VENERIS. IT IS ADIANTUM
>>> VENUSTUM (4x). COULD ALSO BE A TIBETICUM(OR A. VENUSTUM SUBSP. TIBETICUM
>>> THIS IS A SEGGREGATE OF A? VENUSTUM(8x)." from S.P. Khullar ji.
>>>
>>> On 14 September 2012 16:24, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.
>>>>
>>>> Some earlier relevant feedback:
>>>>
>>>> I hope *Adiantum capillus-veneris*
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
>>>>
>>>> Yes Sir- Balkar ji.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: mani nair <[email protected]>
>>>> Date: 5 September 2012 22:12
>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:128877] VoF Week : MN050912 Fern for ID
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> front and back of Fern. Kindly identify
>>>> On the Ghangaria Govindghat trail
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Mani
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> With regards,
>>>> J.M.Garg
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1
>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species
>>>> * & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged
>>>> alphabetically & place-wise):
>>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use
>>>> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.
>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian
>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group:
>>>> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members
>>>> & 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website:
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database
>>>> of more than 7000 species).
>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
>>>> India'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> With regards,
>>> J.M.Garg
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1
>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species*&
>>> eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged
>>> alphabetically & place-wise):
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use
>>> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.
>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian
>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group:
>>> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members
>>> & 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website:
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database
>>> of more than 7000 species).
>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
>>> India'.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> With regards,
>> J.M.Garg
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1
>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
>> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species*&
>> eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged
>> alphabetically & place-wise):
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use
>> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.
>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora,
>> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group:
>> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members &
>> 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website:
>> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database
>> of more than 7000 species).
>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
>> India'.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> With regards,
> J.M.Garg
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1
> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species*&
> eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged
> alphabetically & place-wise):
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use
> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.
> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora,
> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group:
> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members &
> 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website:
> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database
> of more than 7000 species).
> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
> India'.
>
>
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1
'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species* &
eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged
alphabetically & place-wise):
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use them
for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.
For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora,
please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group:
http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members &
1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website:
https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database
of more than 7000 species).
Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
India'.
--
