A reply: "Sorry if my making a different choice from you and in agreement with the Chinese botanists seems to be annoying. As I did say, nothing is wrong with your choice, if based on sufficient familiarity with the morphology (not just from having made chromosome-counts of unrecognised taxa). But I was choosing what appears to me to be the more appropriate rank on the basis of their being easy to tell apart as well as cytologically different. As I said, it was only the poor photos that were causing a problem here! If you have much experience of identification from photos sent by people who do not know what to show, apices, edge on, fragments etc., you will know that quite often inadequate photos make a problem with almost any species, not just these two. I did not say the characters are minute - they surely aren't, and I rather think if you had become more familiar with these species in the field in localities throughout the Indo-Himalaya you might not prefer the choice you have apparently decided on at present - especially when you find you are becoming less "stumped" about them in due course. Certainly there are occasional difficult "marginal" specimens between a large number of related or even not so closely related species in many genera (e.g. Dryopteris in Europe, Polystichum mehrae Fraser-Jenk. & Khullar, versus others in that section; Athyrium attenuatum versus A. nephrodioides [you will remember how initially "A. mehrae" was confused with attenuatum and caused the name attentuatum to be separated from dentigerum]; Asplenium nidus versus phyllitidis; larger individual plants of Aleuritopteris formosana versus A. anceps etc. etc.). But when the great bulk of specimens are easy the taxa are still widely accepted as species, including by your good self. This situation happens throughout taxonomy, but perhaps A. tibeticum still seems a new and difficult taxon to you, bearing in mind its previous confusion and transposition, whereas nowadays when I see it in both herbaria and the field I have little difficulty to recognise it unless the specimen is very poor. That is why I agreed with the previously published choice of rank as a species. But by all means take the choice you prefer, provided you really know the taxa well - this is the strength of our being allowed choice of rank that has never been restricted in taxonomic Botany. Some recent accounts of ferns still make varieties out of species that both of us have always accepted as species - but that is their choice, one only assumes they are probably not sufficiently familiar with the taxa and their distinction. At least it is refreshing to hear of subspecies being proposed - unlike the usual morphologically bankrupt "biological species concept" often applied by less taxonomically experienced workers in blanket fashion all across the board, that makes such difficulty for putting binomials onto specimens of much more critical taxa than these two! Best wishes, Chris."
On 21 September 2012 22:11, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote: > A reply: > "DEAR CHRIS, > IF TMHE DIFFERENCES ARE SO CLEAR, THEN WHY THE DIFFICULTY IN IDENTIFYING > THE PICTURES? WHETHER THEY ARE OF THE SAME PLANT OR NOT, IT SHOULD NOT BE > DIFFICULT TO SAY WHICH IS WHICH! WHEN THE CHARACTERS ARE SO MINUTE, THEN > WHAT IS WRONG IN REDUCING THEM TO SUBSP. OFCOURSE THE TYPICAL ONES MAY NOT > BE DIFFICULT, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE MARGINAL ONES, THEN ONE IS STUMPED! > S P KHULLAR" > > > On 18 September 2012 18:08, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> A reply: >> >> "Since it is difficult to say with any amount of assurance to which >> species they belong to, unless the altitude and size of the fronds >> are mentioned, to guess (?) the name of the species even by experts of >> the stature of Mr C R FRaser-Jenkins, why have them as two species? >> Why not treat these as A. venustum subsp. tibeticum and the other as >> sub sp venustum. What's wrong with this treatment? >> S P Khullar" >> >> On 17 September 2012 13:36, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> A reply: >>> "Incidentally, it is usually easy to distinguish Adiantum venustum from >>> A. tibeticum, which is why the latter as described as a species, not >>> subspecies, which I personally prefer to maintain (as with other species in >>> that group, like A. davidii etc.). Some previous confusion led to >>> perceived difficulty in telling them apart. >>> In this case, difficulty lies in the inadequate photographs, rather than >>> any overlap of the two species. >>> So are they the same plant or not? - As someone says, they do look a bit >>> as if they might be off different plants, though difficult to see. >>> Chris F.-J. " >>> >>> On 15 September 2012 12:04, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> A reply: >>>> "THIS IMAGE IS CERTAINLY NOT ADIANTUM CAPILLUS-VENERIS. IT IS ADIANTUM >>>> VENUSTUM (4x). COULD ALSO BE A TIBETICUM(OR A. VENUSTUM SUBSP. TIBETICUM >>>> THIS IS A SEGGREGATE OF A? VENUSTUM(8x)." from S.P. Khullar ji. >>>> >>>> On 14 September 2012 16:24, jmgarg1 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please. >>>>> >>>>> Some earlier relevant feedback: >>>>> >>>>> I hope *Adiantum capillus-veneris* >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> >>>>> Yes Sir- Balkar ji. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>> From: mani nair <[email protected]> >>>>> Date: 5 September 2012 22:12 >>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:128877] VoF Week : MN050912 Fern for ID >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> front and back of Fern. Kindly identify >>>>> On the Ghangaria Govindghat trail >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Mani >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> With regards, >>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1 >>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand >>>>> species* & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >>>>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise): >>>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use >>>>> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image >>>>> . >>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: >>>>> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 >>>>> members & 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website: >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database >>>>> of more than 7000 species). >>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>>>> India'. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> With regards, >>>> J.M.Garg >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1 >>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species >>>> * & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged >>>> alphabetically & place-wise): >>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use >>>> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: >>>> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members >>>> & 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website: >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database >>>> of more than 7000 species). >>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>>> India'. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> With regards, >>> J.M.Garg >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1 >>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species*& >>> eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged >>> alphabetically & place-wise): >>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use >>> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: >>> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members >>> & 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website: >>> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database >>> of more than 7000 species). >>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>> India'. >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1 >> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species*& >> eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged >> alphabetically & place-wise): >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use >> them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: >> http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members & >> 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website: >> https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database >> of more than 7000 species). >> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >> India'. >> >> > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1 > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species*& > eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged > alphabetically & place-wise): > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use > them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: > http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members & > 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website: > https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database > of more than 7000 species). > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > -- With regards, J.M.Garg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species* & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise): http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1950 members & 1,27,800 messages on 31/8/12) or Efloraofindia website: https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database of more than 7000 species). Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. --
