2nd reply to: > Is compiling a user topic?
And another new message today: http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17957&p=72270#p72267 (mining up a slightly older topic, but still a current request) :-D brynn -------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <ma...@goos-habermann.de> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:03 PM To: "Brynn" <br...@frii.com>; <inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? > Hi Brynn, > > Am 20.06.2015 um 20:50 schrieb Brynn: >> Hi Maren (and whoever else might be interested), >> For the new faq item pointing to the roadmap, I'm thinking in the >> first section .... >> Did you already do this? Or was it already done, and I didn't >> realize it? That's why it's showing unpublished? (banging head smiley >> again!) Ok if I add the caution about the flexibility of the roadmap? > > - Right, it's already in the FAQ: > https://inkscape.org/en/learn/faq/#Will_there_be_an_Inkscape_1.00?_What_would_it_be_like? > > Yes, please add the note about possible changes / not taking that by the > letter there. > >> Re the list of wiki articles that I thought needed to be added to >> documentation, that are currently linked from the faq. Ok, so attached >> is a new document I started, with these faq items at the top, and we can >> add below as we work through the wiki. > > - Nice :) > >> Briefly, it sounds like we agree that #1 and #2 would be good to >> be documented. #3 and #4 are no longer applicable (the faq items which >> linked to them aren't there anymore -- I think there was some last >> minute editing, or otherwise sometime since I wrote that list, that >> those items were either dropped or changed, and the info isn't needed). > >> However, I think it would be awesome to have instructions for compiling, >> for all 3 supported systems! > > - Yes :) But those instructions (esp. the necessary libraries you need > to install before you compile) change rapidly (relative to Inkscape-time > units :)). > I don't know if it is possible to make them so generic as to keep them > current for as long as possible. > > Is compiling a user topic? Or is this developer realm? For me, it's a > bit in a grey zone in between, but more on the dev side. Testers would > need that. Or people who want to offer Inkscape for download. > > For the normal users, pre-release versions are available for download > for previewing when a new release is nearing, and daily builds for > Ubuntu are available all the time, too. I think ~suv is creating OS X > builds regularly. > > Compiling on Linux/Debian-based systems is quite generic and easy, and > there's a (mostly, don't know about dependencies) current version on the > Wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingUbuntu > > For Windows, the last update by TheAdib is from last summer: > http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Creating_Inkscape_distributions#Creating_a_Windows_Distro > > For OS X, there's a clearly outdated guide: > http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingMacOsX > > Oh, oops - I just found that the info *is* already on the website: > https://inkscape.org/en/develop/getting-started/ > (could probably profit from an update, though) > > You could add that to the to-do list, to a new 'Website' section, as > 'needs update'.... > Just like these: > https://inkscape.org/en/contribute/testing/, > https://inkscape.org/en/develop/debugging/ (that last one might just > need a quick glance by someone who knows how it works, could still be > current) > > Yesterday, our translators already complained about outdated/unfinished > pages... I couldn't help much with that, unfortunately, besides asking > them to concentrate on the other pages... Argh... > > The devs I had asked - various over time - all forgot about reviewing > the page / had other priorities in the end, and I don't want to ask > repeatedly... It's not my job to annoy people... > > >> #5 is the Illustrator info. When I first started with Inkscape, >> there was some demand for this info. I used to see messages in forums >> from Illustrator users wishing to switch over -- at least enough >> messages to warrant the article or chapter in the manual. I haven't >> seen a message like that for probably.....2 or 3 years. I'm not sure >> why. It seems to me that the info should still be relevant (current >> info, I mean, current to both programs). >> But let's not get too hung up on how to accomplish this stuff. >> Let's just make the list for Step 1. And maybe by the time we're done, >> we'll be getting some ideas about Step 2. How does that sound? > > - Reasonable, smart and good :) > >> Shortly after I send this, I'll add the list of 10 or 15 pages >> from the list I told you I had started (separate from the 1 for the >> faq), and we can discuss whenever we have time. Does that sound ok? > > - Yep. > > Thank you, Brynn! > > Kind regards, > Maren > >> All best, >> brynn >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Maren Hachmann" <ma...@goos-habermann.de> >> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:52 AM >> To: "Brynn" <br...@frii.com>; <inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net> >> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? >> >>> Hi Brynn, >>> >>> Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn: >>>> Hi Maren, >>>> Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does >>>> it >>>> know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or >>>> some >>>> other program's wiki, etc? >>> >>> - The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The >>> other pages range below in the list it shows me. >>> >>> >>>> If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then they >>>> simply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using >>>> Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and >>>> developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as >>>> 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm >>>> that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I >>>> recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who >>>> knows >>>> that.** >>> >>> - I'm a user, too ;) >>> New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in >>> my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to >>> wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't >>> even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to >>> it). >>> It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the >>> project, didn't know that. >>> >>>> Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that are >>>> user-related, >>>> that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a >>>> list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting >>>> tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure >>>> if >>>> they were for users or not. >>>> I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get >>>> some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could >>>> do >>>> is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else? >>> >>> - Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good >>> idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to >>> users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. >>> those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but >>> we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought. >>> >>>> (Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don't >>>> think >>>> you were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev >>>> mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki >>>> which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's >>>> possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, >>>> but that was my best understanding at the time.) >>>> I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the >>>> Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would >>>> go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" >>>> by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. >>>> That could also be said in the faq. >>>> I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting >>>> off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while >>>> I'm >>>> at it? >>> >>> - Go ahead :) - sounds good to me. >>> >>>>> - You're quite hardy :) >>>>> I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or >>>>> 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... >>>> >>>> Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right >>>> answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware! >>>> >>>> Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a >>>> plan? >>> >>> - Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state >>> to *know* if the info is still correct. >>> >>> So there are a few options: >>> - Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is >>> outdated, discard right away. >>> >>> - Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed. This >>> is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, >>> but it can give you a hint. >>> >>> - Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different? >>> (That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be >>> able to tell that for all wiki pages) >>> >>> - Ask someone who might know. >>> (This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... >>> and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say >>> they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have >>> priority for many.) >>> >>> For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able >>> to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. >>> We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other >>> software, which we do not own. >>> >>> About the attached list of Wiki articles: >>> >>> - some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we >>> now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to >>> choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other >>> things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... >>> As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm >>> inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a >>> more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, >>> with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this >>> refers to. >>> >>> - Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we >>> could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a >>> reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info >>> there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these >>> questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be >>> quite buggy currently, anyway... >>> >>> - Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would >>> be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be >>> subject to change. >>> >>> - Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK, people >>> usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the >>> other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be >>> transferred? I might have overlooked something... >>> >>> >>>>> Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can >>>>> maybe find a way to include the main components on the website? >>>> >>>> I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the >>>> new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I >>>> won't have to go to the wiki anymore. >>>> This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to >>>> write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I >>>> mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather >>>> than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on >>>> the website. But again, that's another subject. >>> >>> - Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this >>> myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that >>> effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around. >>> >>> What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, >>> and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a >>> real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background >>> of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually >>> took the time to explain to me.) >>> >>> The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it >>> can't copy anything from Tav's guide. >>> (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to >>> understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in >>> the end) >>> And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, >>> who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who >>> actually have the knowledge to do so. >>> And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide >>> them. >>> This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user >>> activity on mailing lists etc. ... >>> We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;) >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Maren >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> brynn >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Maren Hachmann" <ma...@goos-habermann.de> >>>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM >>>> To: "Brynn" <br...@frii.com>; <inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? >>>> >>>>> Hi Brynn, >>>>> >>>>> Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn: >>>>>> Hi Maren, >>>>>> Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for >>>>>> developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for >>>>>> users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could >>>>>> use >>>>>> it too. >>>>> >>>>> - Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think: >>>>> https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph >>>>> (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to >>>>> date). >>>>> >>>>> I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then >>>>> autocompletion kicks in... >>>>> >>>>>> I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go from >>>>>> website to wiki. Maybe it's just me. >>>>>> But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release >>>>>> Notes, >>>>> >>>>> - I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release >>>>> Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important >>>>> part >>>>> of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our >>>>> translators' >>>>> team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki >>>>> privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a >>>>> difficult >>>>> task by itself...). >>>>> >>>>>> Roadmap, >>>>> >>>>> - The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should >>>>> not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the >>>>> letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit >>>>> hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website >>>>> which >>>>> could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? >>>>> (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?) >>>>> >>>>>> and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support >>>>>> questions from forums. >>>>> >>>>> - You're quite hardy :) >>>>> I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or >>>>> 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... >>>>> Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can >>>>> maybe find a way to include the main components on the website? >>>>> >>>>>> And for the latter, this is especially more for >>>>>> the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, >>>>>> and a >>>>>> lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual >>>>>> is >>>>>> updated, I won't be in the wiki as much. >>>>> >>>>> - Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of >>>>> work >>>>> (so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while. >>>>> >>>>>> (There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I >>>>>> started to >>>>>> work on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to >>>>>> the >>>>>> website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my >>>>>> head. >>>>>> I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, >>>>>> hoping to at least get that much transferred over. >>>>> >>>>> - Could you share that list? >>>>> >>>>> But afaik, no one >>>>>> has updated them or moved to the website.) >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Maren >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> brynn >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Maren Hachmann" <ma...@goos-habermann.de> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM >>>>>> To: <inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? >>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn: >>>>>>>> Hi Friends, >>>>>>>> This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a >>>>>>>> Favorite/Bookmark >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> website? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Brynn, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. >>>>>>> Is it for learning? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their >>>>>>> ideas. >>>>>>> Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live >>>>>>> there, >>>>>>> because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were >>>>>>> finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki >>>>>>> than on >>>>>>> the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What are your use cases? >>>>>>> Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Maren >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the >>>>>>>> bottom >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All best, >>>>>>>> brynn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Inkscape-docs mailing list >>>>>>>> Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Inkscape-docs mailing list >>>>>>> Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Monitor 25 network devices or servers for free with OpManager! 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