Nice summary Greg, and personally I'd agree more with your first summary of his conclusion rather than Barth's take on it (my personal agreement doesn't make it right of course, just right for me for now, pending further discussions and exploration -- yep, I'm still a GenX child, despite the formal study of theology).
I found it interesting that the two letters Dutney referred to mirrored some of our discussion last week. Prayer as cooperative art is a nice concept, especially with the pastoral undertones of farming, healing and teaching. Prayer to bring together those affected by drought could be in a similar vein, rather than collectively praying to produce rain. Prayer becomes community-building rather than meteorology-influencing, and that changes both the content of the prayer and the expectation of results. That's where it gets interesting for empirical study. Can good prayer make it rain? Not predictably. Can good prayer bring together a community? With much more predictability, I'd suggest, since that's why it's commonly used in health care. So prayer is effective, but it depends on what you pray for. Regards, Rohan Rohan Pryor Manager, Information Technology Services Synod of Victoria and Tasmania Uniting Church in Australia Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ph: (03) 9251 5243 Fax: (03) 9654 4110 Website: http://vic.uca.org.au -----Original Message----- From: Greg Crawford [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 3:55 PM To: 'insights-l' Subject: RE: Praying for Rain >Andrew Dutney addressed this issue well at last year's May McLeod >memorial lecture (at UTC in Sydney). >http://nsw.uca.org.au/boe/resources/maymacleod2003.htm > >Worth a read! Yes, well worth a read. Andrew appears to argue that God is an influencing rather than controlling power. Our faith is that this influence shall ultimately triumph. Moreover this influence is not just over human nature, but Nature per se. Andrew's conclusion appears to be: "It continues to be proper to pray for such things as rain, healing and peace; but to do so in cooperation with the Spirit of God already dynamically present as the power within the earth for fruitfulness, within the body for wholeness, and within human communities for peace." However, right at the end it is unclear whether Andrew is sticking with this notion. For he quotes Karl Barth: "For Barth, prayer isn't an exercise in self-improvement but a turning to God for whatever we need. Indeed, he insisted that true prayer is essentially petition; asking God for things; everything from the coming of the kingdom to daily bread." ".empty hands are necessary when human hands are to be spread out before God and filled by Him. It is these empty hands that God in His goodness wills of us when he bids us pray to Him. 18" "Prayer - asking God for things - expresses the true relation between human beings and God. It is the action of faith." While Andrew has contrasted Barth's notion with that of an exercise in self-improvement, he hasn't really related it to the notion of prayer as cooperation with God as influencing power. - Greg ------------------------------------------------------ - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm ------------------------------------------------------
