On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta <ocram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Christian, > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsi...@e.mail.de> wrote: > > > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of > > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against > > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even > > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get > Ukriane > > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia > > and the western. > > > > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do > > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never > > simple. Usually there's a long story. > > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for > > sure. > > > > Please do not start that. > > > > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, > > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net. > > > > Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're > busy enough with butchering civilians over there. > > Greets, > > Marco Pivetta > > http://twitter.com/Ocramius > > http://ocramius.github.io/ I find this deeply, deeply disturbing. In response to someone making the argument that using the PHP website to take sides in military conflicts between nations would risk dividing our community, you told him to "get the fuck out" and accused him of promoting "Putin's propaganda". From where I'm sitting, this looks like a blatant effort on your part to silence any dissent on this by immediately demonizing critics of this idea as Russian operatives. Are you going to accuse me of being a Russian spy now, as well? To be clear, I don't support Putin's invasion of Ukraine. In fact, I was denouncing Putin on social media as a brutal dictator before it was cool, back when the western news media was still singing his praises. He's a war criminal piece of garbage and the world will be much better off when he's finally gone. But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking sides in military conflicts. I just don't like the precedent we'd be setting, especially since, as others have already pointed out here, we never took any such stand against the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, or Libya. So if we were to start doing that now, it would look pretty damn hypocritical of us. Plus I don't want us to start having to deal with batshit conspiracy theories about how PHP is secretly controlled by the U.S. government. Besides, it should be noted that PHP is not a political organization. If anybody's open to a compromise proposal, how about a general statement of support for the peoples of Ukraine and any other nation currently besieged by foreign invaders. That I think would be far less divisive, as evidenced by some of the messages we're seeing in this thread. Accusing every random dissenter of being an agent of Vladimir Putin just reeks of logical fallacies, not to mention paranoia. Reverting back to a McCarthyist mindset will not help the people of Ukraine. So can we please try to tone this down a bit? I read through this entire thread (painful though it was in places) and was not able to find anything that any reasonable observer would regard as "Putin propaganda". Nobody here is a Russian secret agent trying to mindfuck us. What I see is a group of people who believe PHP needs to take a stand on this issue and another group of people who believe PHP has no business getting involved. Both are valid arguments worthy of debate, which means there's absolutely NO NEED to question people's motives or demonize them as being agents of Putin or the U.S. or whatever else. Just debate the merits of the issue, take a vote, and we're good. Alternatively, I also like Viktor's idea of making a broader statement against war in general.
