Hola llistaires. De fet el biling�isme ens porta igualment a la desaparici�, ja que si "tamb�" es pot fer en espanyol, per quina ra� ho haur�em de fer en catal�. El biling�isme nom�s seria v�lid com a un pas previ, per tal d�arribar al monoling�isme catal�, per� �s que molts ho fan a la inversa per afavorir llurs interessos. No s� quina ra� podr�em esgrimir, per� per la seducci�, segur que ara com ara, no es podr� fer, per dissort, per� �s aix�.Tant de bo, ho pogu�ssim fer, per� per desgr�cia la gent va cap on hi ha poder, i si el catal� no en t�, doncs, no hi anir�. De totes maneres, la culpa nom�s �s de la gran majoria del poble catal�, perqu� si quan es fes una cosa en espanyol, els catalans hi f�ssim el boicot, i no hi an�s ning�, llavors ja serien les "majors", pel seu propi compte qui ho farien en catal�, per� com que el catal�, en general, tant li fa en catal� o en espanyol, llavors no s� qu� podem fer.I no cal dir que molta immigraci� no tenen cap inter�s que es normalitzi el nostre idioma, ja que diuen, els hispanos, que precisament, "ens uneix" l�idioma espanyol.Com voleu que el refusi en benefici del catal�?.I no s�adonen que la majoria dels seus pobles varen aconseguir la independ�ncia d�Espanya, i que si parlen com ells, �s per aquella colonitzaci�. Ra� de m�s, doncs, nosaltres, que no parlem espanyol, per tenir la nostra terra independent, a fi de poder viure en catal� com qualsevol poble del m�n, viu en l�idioma llur. Ara b�, repeteixo, la responsabilitat nom�s �s nostra, no cal buscar culpables de fora.Nom�s cal que els catalans ens conscienciem que ho volem TOT en catal�, ja que l�espanyol i franc�s, per b� que deuen ser unes lleng�es molt boniques, molesten quan s�imposen a terra d�altri. Aix� s�, doncs, que el catal� dep�n de la gran majoria dels catalans, l�gicament.
Jordi Romaguera. En/Na "Fust� S�nchez, Cesar" ha escrit: > Ara em tirareu els gossos a sobre, per� jo no crec que el bilinguisme > s'aconsegueixi imposar per la via de la obligaci�. Vaja en algun aspecte > potser si (retolaci�, senyalitzaci�, etc...) per� hi han moltes coses on la > via de la obligaci� nom�s ens pot portar al fracas. Un exemple a petita > escala va ser el del cine, es va fer una llei de normalitzaci� ling�istica, > on s'obligava a les distribuidores a doblar un cert percentatge de pelicules > en catal�,... despres de lluites baralles amenaces, etc. la cosa s'ha acabat > que no se si el propi president o alg� en nom seu, va haver d'anar a EEUU a > negociar la aplicaci� de la llei (anar als estats units a negociar la > aplicaci� d'una llei es de rep�blica bananera, la imatge que donem es de > govern molt debil) i si no m'equivoco per que la llei es compleixi es la > generalitat que paga els doblatges. > Un altre cas seria el de'n harry potter, on les queixer de milers de > persones fen que una distribuidora de cine reconegui un error i agafi un > compromis de doblar el reste de pelicules de la serie en catal� (i, si no > m'equivoco, a carrec seu). > Si obligu�ssim a les empreses a parlar catal� en totes les seves operacions > (fins i tot les internes) el resultat es que marxarien (o diractamnet ja no > vindrien aqu�) i un altre lloc i frenariem la economia catalana, i per tant > la importancia de Catalunya i com a resultat del catal�. > Tampoc n0'estic segur, per� una (d'entre moltes) rao per la que les empreses > prefereixen les centrals fora de Barcelona, es perque em sembla que tenim el > IAE mes car de tota Espanya, es mes rentable instalar la central de > l'empresa a Madrid. > > Em sembla molt millor intentar aconseguir un us del catal� molt m�s elevat > per la via de la normalitzaci� i de la racionalitat (si tothom parla catal�, > les pelicules, internet, llibres, etc... seran en catal�, per for�a ha de > ser aix�). De totes maneres, si hem d'aplicar lleis crec mes productives les > de premi a les de castig, crec mes productiu que a una empresa li resulti > rentable aplicar el catal� (perque la gent ja el parla, perque esta > subencionat, pel que sigui) que no pas que ho hagi de fer per evitar una > multa -(que passaria quan canvies la regulaci�?) > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: JMG [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Enviado el: jueves 21 de febrero de 2002 18:50 > > Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Asunto: [Internauta] QU�BEC I EL BILINGUISME A LA XARXA > > > > Hola, > > > > Acabo de llegir aquest article sobre la exig�ncia de les autoritats del > > Qu�bec (confirmades ja per una resoluci� judicial) perque les empreses > > ubicades all� tinguin obligat�riament la seva web en versi� francesa, i no > > > > nom�s en angl�s que es l'idioma majoritari, per molt que la seva web sigui > > > > accesible a fora del territori quebequ�s. El raonament �s que s'ha > > d'aplicar a Internet les mateixes normes que al m�n f�sic. > > > > Desseguida m'he plantejat la seg�ent q�esti�: tenint en compte la > > legislaci� catalana (Llei de Normalitzaci� Ling��stica i dem�s), seria > > aplicable el mateix principi? Podria l'administraci� catalana obligar a > > complir la mateixa legislaci� per a Internet que per al m�n f�sic a les > > empreses privades que estiguin radicades a Catalunya, tot i que no > > s'adrecin exclusivament a l'ambit catal� (i, evidentment, amb m�s ra� a > > les > > que nom�s es dirigeixin a la poblaci� de Catalunya)? > > > > Desconec, i ho lamento, quins s�n els extrems concrets en que la Llei de > > Normalitzaci� Ling��stica obliga a les empreses privades del m�n f�sic a > > introdu�r obligat�riament el catal� a les seves comunicacions i signes > > externs. Per�, s'hauria d'aplicar el mateix principi a Internet? > > > > Coneix alg� quina �s la postura de la Generalitat al respecte? > > > > Salutacions > > > > JMG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quebec firm's language law challenge tests e-jurisdiction > > > > By MICHAEL GEIST > > > > Thursday, February 21, 2002 - Print Edition, Page B25 > > > > Although a small minority may still view the Internet as a "wild west" > > where traditional law does not > > > > apply, most Canadians accept that laws such as the Criminal Code, consumer > > > > protection statutes and privacy protections apply equally offline and > > on-line. > > > > To that list we must now include another piece of legislation: Quebec's > > French language law. > > > > The application of this law to the Internet has long been the source of > > controversy, as Quebec-based Web site owners have regularly faced demands > > that they either remove their English-only site from the Web or create a > > French-language version. > > > > For example, MicroBytes-Logiciels Inc., a Montreal-based software > > developer, altered its site after receiving such a demand in 1997. In > > 1999, > > photographer Mike Calomiris faced a similar demand and vowed to fight. His > > > > first court appearance has just been scheduled for March 26. > > > > Last year, Muriel and Stanley Reid, a Quebec couple selling maple syrup > > from an English-only Web site, were fined by the Office de la Langue > > Fran�aise for failing to translate their site. A decision on the case is > > expected later this month. > > > > While those cases all generated headlines, they have yet to make it > > through > > Canada's courts. > > > > One case has, however. Last November, a Quebec court issued the first > > ruling on French language laws in cyberspace -- an important decision that > > > > has been surprisingly overlooked by Canadian media. > > > > When Simon Sunatori, owner and CEO of Hull-based Hyperinfo Canada Inc., > > was > > asked in 1999 by the OLF to translate http://www.hyperinfo.ca into French, > > > > his first reaction was to try to comply by translating portions of the > > site. The authorities were unimpressed, however, reiterating that the site > > > > had to be fully translated. When Mr. Sunatori refused to comply, they took > > > > the matter to court. > > > > Mr. Sunatori represented himself, and raised several interesting > > arguments. > > He first argued that his customers resided primarily in the United States, > > > > and that his site should therefore qualify for an exemption for products > > that are not widely available in Quebec. The court rejected that argument, > > > > noting that the exemption applied to labelling requirements and not to > > commercial publicity relating to a product, such as a Web site. > > > > He then argued that he should be entitled to rely on technical and legal > > measures designed to minimize the availability of the site to Quebec > > residents. By placing a disclaimer that "the products and services on this > > > > Web site are not available to the residents of Quebec due to 'la Charte de > > > > la Langue Fran�aise,' " as well as blocking visitors coming from dot-qc > > addresses, Mr. Sunatori argued that few Quebec residents would view the > > site. The court dismissed these measures, ruling that the blocking > > technologies were imperfect and that a site owner could not use a > > disclaimer to avoid complying with language provisions. > > > > Mr. Sunatori's most important submission focused on the very application > > of > > Quebec's language laws to the Internet. Citing the Internet's borderless > > qualities, he argued that it was unfair for the Quebec government to > > saddle > > businesses with constraints that are not faced by competitors located > > outside the province. > > > > In rejecting that argument and finding Hyperinfo liable under the language > > > > legislation, the court acknowledged that information on the Web typically > > moves freely between jurisdictions, but it was not persuaded that this > > alone alters the sovereign right of governments to regulate on-line > > activity, particularly where the activity occurs within their physical > > borders. > > > > Although many Canadians may instinctively criticize both the language > > authorities' insistence that their laws apply to the Web as well as the > > court's decision upholding that claim, I believe the judge dealt with this > > > > issue fairly in view of the current state of the law. > > > > As he correctly noted, the Supreme Court of Canada, in common with most > > courts around the world, has adopted a jurisdictional principle that > > allows > > for the application of local law where the activity or the effects of the > > activity occur within local territory. In recent years that approach has > > been used to apply Canadian securities laws to Web sites maintained by > > Canadians on offshore servers, and to protect Canadian consumers from > > fraudulent Web sites located outside the country. > > > > Most recently, it was used by the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal to apply > > Canada's antihate human rights legislation to a U.S.-based Web site > > maintained by a Canadian resident. > > > > The application of Quebec's language laws to provincial Web sites is > > hardly > > any different. Quebec must have the right to apply its laws to firms > > located within the province, since to rule otherwise is to call into > > question the right of all governments to apply their laws to the on-line > > environment. > > > > While the Quebec language laws may infuriate those who disagree with > > government-mandated speech, their complaint should be with the law itself, > > > > not with its application on-line. After all, an Internet without the broad > > > > range of laws we depend upon is a far more troubling proposition. > > Michael Geist is a law professor at the University of Ottawa Law School > > and > > director of e-commerce law at the law firm Goodmans LLP. His Web site is > > http://www.lawbytes.com. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -------------------------L'INTERNAUTA------------------------------- > > Per enviar missatges a la llista: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Altes, baixes i informaci� de la llista: <http://www.internauta.net> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------L'INTERNAUTA------------------------------- > Per enviar missatges a la llista: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Altes, baixes i informaci� de la llista: <http://www.internauta.net> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------L'INTERNAUTA------------------------------- Per enviar missatges a la llista: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Altes, baixes i informaci� de la llista: <http://www.internauta.net> --------------------------------------------------------------------
