Si d'aix� parlava de biling�isme per arribar al monoling�isme (b� estaria content amb una diglosia)
> -----Mensaje original----- > De: Jordi Romaguera [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Enviado el: s�bado 23 de febrero de 2002 15:04 > Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Asunto: Re: [Internauta] RE: [Internauta] QU�BEC I EL BILINGUISME A > LA XARXA > > Hola llistaires. > > De fet el biling�isme ens porta igualment a la desaparici�, ja que si > "tamb�" es > pot fer en espanyol, per quina ra� ho haur�em de fer en catal�. El > biling�isme > nom�s seria v�lid com a un pas previ, per tal d�arribar al monoling�isme > catal�, > per� �s que molts ho fan a la inversa per afavorir llurs interessos. > No s� quina ra� podr�em esgrimir, per� per la seducci�, segur que ara com > ara, > no es podr� fer, per dissort, per� �s aix�.Tant de bo, ho pogu�ssim fer, > per� > per desgr�cia la gent va cap on hi ha poder, i si el catal� no en t�, > doncs, no > hi anir�. > De totes maneres, la culpa nom�s �s de la gran majoria del poble catal�, > perqu� > si quan es fes una cosa en espanyol, els catalans hi f�ssim el boicot, i > no hi > an�s ning�, llavors ja serien les "majors", pel seu propi compte qui ho > farien > en catal�, per� com que el catal�, en general, tant li fa en catal� o en > espanyol, llavors no s� qu� podem fer.I no cal dir que molta immigraci� no > tenen > cap inter�s que es normalitzi el nostre idioma, ja que diuen, els > hispanos, que > precisament, "ens uneix" l�idioma espanyol.Com voleu que el refusi en > benefici > del catal�?.I no s�adonen que la majoria dels seus pobles varen aconseguir > la > independ�ncia d�Espanya, i que si parlen com ells, �s per aquella > colonitzaci�. > Ra� de m�s, doncs, nosaltres, que no parlem espanyol, per tenir la nostra > terra > independent, a fi de poder viure en catal� com qualsevol poble del m�n, > viu en > l�idioma llur. > Ara b�, repeteixo, la responsabilitat nom�s �s nostra, no cal buscar > culpables > de fora.Nom�s cal que els catalans ens conscienciem que ho volem TOT en > catal�, > ja que l�espanyol i franc�s, per b� que deuen ser unes lleng�es molt > boniques, > molesten quan s�imposen a terra d�altri. > Aix� s�, doncs, que el catal� dep�n de la gran majoria dels catalans, > l�gicament. > > Jordi Romaguera. > > En/Na "Fust� S�nchez, Cesar" ha escrit: > > > Ara em tirareu els gossos a sobre, per� jo no crec que el bilinguisme > > s'aconsegueixi imposar per la via de la obligaci�. Vaja en algun aspecte > > potser si (retolaci�, senyalitzaci�, etc...) per� hi han moltes coses on > la > > via de la obligaci� nom�s ens pot portar al fracas. Un exemple a petita > > escala va ser el del cine, es va fer una llei de normalitzaci� > ling�istica, > > on s'obligava a les distribuidores a doblar un cert percentatge de > pelicules > > en catal�,... despres de lluites baralles amenaces, etc. la cosa s'ha > acabat > > que no se si el propi president o alg� en nom seu, va haver d'anar a > EEUU a > > negociar la aplicaci� de la llei (anar als estats units a negociar la > > aplicaci� d'una llei es de rep�blica bananera, la imatge que donem es de > > govern molt debil) i si no m'equivoco per que la llei es compleixi es la > > generalitat que paga els doblatges. > > Un altre cas seria el de'n harry potter, on les queixer de milers de > > persones fen que una distribuidora de cine reconegui un error i agafi un > > compromis de doblar el reste de pelicules de la serie en catal� (i, si > no > > m'equivoco, a carrec seu). > > Si obligu�ssim a les empreses a parlar catal� en totes les seves > operacions > > (fins i tot les internes) el resultat es que marxarien (o diractamnet ja > no > > vindrien aqu�) i un altre lloc i frenariem la economia catalana, i per > tant > > la importancia de Catalunya i com a resultat del catal�. > > Tampoc n0'estic segur, per� una (d'entre moltes) rao per la que les > empreses > > prefereixen les centrals fora de Barcelona, es perque em sembla que > tenim el > > IAE mes car de tota Espanya, es mes rentable instalar la central de > > l'empresa a Madrid. > > > > Em sembla molt millor intentar aconseguir un us del catal� molt m�s > elevat > > per la via de la normalitzaci� i de la racionalitat (si tothom parla > catal�, > > les pelicules, internet, llibres, etc... seran en catal�, per for�a ha > de > > ser aix�). De totes maneres, si hem d'aplicar lleis crec mes productives > les > > de premi a les de castig, crec mes productiu que a una empresa li > resulti > > rentable aplicar el catal� (perque la gent ja el parla, perque esta > > subencionat, pel que sigui) que no pas que ho hagi de fer per evitar una > > multa -(que passaria quan canvies la regulaci�?) > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > > De: JMG [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Enviado el: jueves 21 de febrero de 2002 18:50 > > > Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Asunto: [Internauta] QU�BEC I EL BILINGUISME A LA XARXA > > > > > > Hola, > > > > > > Acabo de llegir aquest article sobre la exig�ncia de les autoritats > del > > > Qu�bec (confirmades ja per una resoluci� judicial) perque les empreses > > > ubicades all� tinguin obligat�riament la seva web en versi� francesa, > i no > > > > > > nom�s en angl�s que es l'idioma majoritari, per molt que la seva web > sigui > > > > > > accesible a fora del territori quebequ�s. El raonament �s que s'ha > > > d'aplicar a Internet les mateixes normes que al m�n f�sic. > > > > > > Desseguida m'he plantejat la seg�ent q�esti�: tenint en compte la > > > legislaci� catalana (Llei de Normalitzaci� Ling��stica i dem�s), seria > > > aplicable el mateix principi? Podria l'administraci� catalana obligar > a > > > complir la mateixa legislaci� per a Internet que per al m�n f�sic a > les > > > empreses privades que estiguin radicades a Catalunya, tot i que no > > > s'adrecin exclusivament a l'ambit catal� (i, evidentment, amb m�s ra� > a > > > les > > > que nom�s es dirigeixin a la poblaci� de Catalunya)? > > > > > > Desconec, i ho lamento, quins s�n els extrems concrets en que la Llei > de > > > Normalitzaci� Ling��stica obliga a les empreses privades del m�n f�sic > a > > > introdu�r obligat�riament el catal� a les seves comunicacions i signes > > > externs. Per�, s'hauria d'aplicar el mateix principi a Internet? > > > > > > Coneix alg� quina �s la postura de la Generalitat al respecte? > > > > > > Salutacions > > > > > > JMG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quebec firm's language law challenge tests e-jurisdiction > > > > > > By MICHAEL GEIST > > > > > > Thursday, February 21, 2002 - Print Edition, Page B25 > > > > > > Although a small minority may still view the Internet as a "wild west" > > > where traditional law does not > > > > > > apply, most Canadians accept that laws such as the Criminal Code, > consumer > > > > > > protection statutes and privacy protections apply equally offline and > > > on-line. > > > > > > To that list we must now include another piece of legislation: > Quebec's > > > French language law. > > > > > > The application of this law to the Internet has long been the source > of > > > controversy, as Quebec-based Web site owners have regularly faced > demands > > > that they either remove their English-only site from the Web or create > a > > > French-language version. > > > > > > For example, MicroBytes-Logiciels Inc., a Montreal-based software > > > developer, altered its site after receiving such a demand in 1997. In > > > 1999, > > > photographer Mike Calomiris faced a similar demand and vowed to fight. > His > > > > > > first court appearance has just been scheduled for March 26. > > > > > > Last year, Muriel and Stanley Reid, a Quebec couple selling maple > syrup > > > from an English-only Web site, were fined by the Office de la Langue > > > Fran�aise for failing to translate their site. A decision on the case > is > > > expected later this month. > > > > > > While those cases all generated headlines, they have yet to make it > > > through > > > Canada's courts. > > > > > > One case has, however. Last November, a Quebec court issued the first > > > ruling on French language laws in cyberspace -- an important decision > that > > > > > > has been surprisingly overlooked by Canadian media. > > > > > > When Simon Sunatori, owner and CEO of Hull-based Hyperinfo Canada > Inc., > > > was > > > asked in 1999 by the OLF to translate http://www.hyperinfo.ca into > French, > > > > > > his first reaction was to try to comply by translating portions of the > > > site. The authorities were unimpressed, however, reiterating that the > site > > > > > > had to be fully translated. When Mr. Sunatori refused to comply, they > took > > > > > > the matter to court. > > > > > > Mr. Sunatori represented himself, and raised several interesting > > > arguments. > > > He first argued that his customers resided primarily in the United > States, > > > > > > and that his site should therefore qualify for an exemption for > products > > > that are not widely available in Quebec. The court rejected that > argument, > > > > > > noting that the exemption applied to labelling requirements and not to > > > commercial publicity relating to a product, such as a Web site. > > > > > > He then argued that he should be entitled to rely on technical and > legal > > > measures designed to minimize the availability of the site to Quebec > > > residents. By placing a disclaimer that "the products and services on > this > > > > > > Web site are not available to the residents of Quebec due to 'la > Charte de > > > > > > la Langue Fran�aise,' " as well as blocking visitors coming from > dot-qc > > > addresses, Mr. Sunatori argued that few Quebec residents would view > the > > > site. The court dismissed these measures, ruling that the blocking > > > technologies were imperfect and that a site owner could not use a > > > disclaimer to avoid complying with language provisions. > > > > > > Mr. Sunatori's most important submission focused on the very > application > > > of > > > Quebec's language laws to the Internet. Citing the Internet's > borderless > > > qualities, he argued that it was unfair for the Quebec government to > > > saddle > > > businesses with constraints that are not faced by competitors located > > > outside the province. > > > > > > In rejecting that argument and finding Hyperinfo liable under the > language > > > > > > legislation, the court acknowledged that information on the Web > typically > > > moves freely between jurisdictions, but it was not persuaded that this > > > alone alters the sovereign right of governments to regulate on-line > > > activity, particularly where the activity occurs within their physical > > > borders. > > > > > > Although many Canadians may instinctively criticize both the language > > > authorities' insistence that their laws apply to the Web as well as > the > > > court's decision upholding that claim, I believe the judge dealt with > this > > > > > > issue fairly in view of the current state of the law. > > > > > > As he correctly noted, the Supreme Court of Canada, in common with > most > > > courts around the world, has adopted a jurisdictional principle that > > > allows > > > for the application of local law where the activity or the effects of > the > > > activity occur within local territory. In recent years that approach > has > > > been used to apply Canadian securities laws to Web sites maintained by > > > Canadians on offshore servers, and to protect Canadian consumers from > > > fraudulent Web sites located outside the country. > > > > > > Most recently, it was used by the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal to > apply > > > Canada's antihate human rights legislation to a U.S.-based Web site > > > maintained by a Canadian resident. > > > > > > The application of Quebec's language laws to provincial Web sites is > > > hardly > > > any different. Quebec must have the right to apply its laws to firms > > > located within the province, since to rule otherwise is to call into > > > question the right of all governments to apply their laws to the > on-line > > > environment. > > > > > > While the Quebec language laws may infuriate those who disagree with > > > government-mandated speech, their complaint should be with the law > itself, > > > > > > not with its application on-line. After all, an Internet without the > broad > > > > > > range of laws we depend upon is a far more troubling proposition. > > > Michael Geist is a law professor at the University of Ottawa Law > School > > > and > > > director of e-commerce law at the law firm Goodmans LLP. His Web site > is > > > http://www.lawbytes.com. > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > -------------------------L'INTERNAUTA------------------------------- > > > Per enviar missatges a la llista: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Altes, baixes i informaci� de la llista: <http://www.internauta.net> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------L'INTERNAUTA------------------------------- > > Per enviar missatges a la llista: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Altes, baixes i informaci� de la llista: <http://www.internauta.net> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------L'INTERNAUTA------------------------------- > Per enviar missatges a la llista: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Altes, baixes i informaci� de la llista: <http://www.internauta.net> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------L'INTERNAUTA------------------------------- Per enviar missatges a la llista: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Altes, baixes i informaci� de la llista: <http://www.internauta.net> --------------------------------------------------------------------
