http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=P7vh3k&hSession=Recent0
Session Details
Guest Name
Dr. Ghazi Salahuddin Atabani - Advisor to Sudanese President Al-Bashir
Subject
ICC vs. Al-Bashir: Genocide or Interest?
Date
Thursday,Jul 17 ,2008
Time
Makkah
From... 13:00...To... 15:30
GMT
From... 10:00...To...12:30
Name
Editor -
Profession
Question
Dear visitors,
The session has just started. Please, send your questions.
After the session ends, you can view the whole dialogue through the Recent
Sessions, or the archive.
Best,
Muslim Affairs Team
Answer
.
Name
IOL Vister -
Profession
Question
If we forget about asking questions like: why does not the court try President
Bush, Ehud Olmert...etc. and focus precisely on the case of Darfur, Isn't it
true that Al-Bachir is responsible for the killings of thousands of civilians?
I am sure other parties are responsible as well, but can u answer my question
directly. Is Al-Bachir responsible (and to what degree?)for the killings,
rapes..etc. in Darfur and elsewhere in Sudan?
I am not sure if he is, but if that's true, he needs to be tried regardless of
any other on the planet.
thank you
Answer
The problem of Darfur has been grossly distorted and misrepresented. The
Government recognizes that there is a problem; that is why it became engaged in
peace talks to resolve it; the problem is that the rebel groups who are being
pampered by Western countries and activists are refusing to sign up to the
process. This is the reason for the ongoing suffering and not the activities of
the Government in the region.
Name
Rasheed M Kheir Abdel Gadir - United Kingdom
Profession
Question
Salam Dr Ghazi
If the court issues a warrant for the arrest of the president, Will Sudan
severe diplomatic relations with any country that supports such a decision?
Answer
That's an option of course. We keep all options open, but for now we prefer a
diplomatic way out. It is the Security Council that has landed us in this
predicament in the first place and it is their duty to get us and the rest of
the world out of it. The ICC is not an organ of the UN and has no jurisdiction
over Sudan and the case should not have been referred to it from the start.
Name
Isma'íl - Sudan
Profession
Question
Greetngs Dr. Atabani. What effect will Ocampo's decision have on the Darfur
peace talks? It is interesting that Abd al-Wahid Nur of the SLM has held back
on any participation up to now in any peace talks. Could he have been waiting
for the ICC's indictment to "strengthen" his negotiating position?
Answer
This reckless move by Ocampu is certain to embolden the rebels who are now
rejoicing in fact. It is likely to make them raise the ante for any political
settlement. It is weakening one of the most important institutions of the state
-the Presidency- and one of the central organs for the implementation of the
Peace Agreement with the South. It has done all sorts of damage to peace in the
country and in Darfur and has made peace a more distant target, with all the
suffering that goes along with that.
Name
Abdullah - Nigeria
Profession
Question
Salam,
unfortunately I've not been following the situation in Sudan, but what do you
think is the solution to the present situation and what is the government doing
about it?
Answer
Since the question is coming from Nigeria I would like to recall that a peace
settlement has been reached in Abuja two years ago. The government and some
rebels accepted and signed. Others did not. The problem is that the so called
international community -meaning the West- is rewarding those who have not
signed the peace agreement and punishing those who have accepted it. The way
out is through a negotiated settlement which the rebels are rejecting. This is
often an overlooked fact by Western media when they misrepresent the situation
in Darfur, the fact that there is suffering in Darfur precisely because the
rebels have rejected peace
Name
Amro -
Profession
Question
Do you think that indictment of al-Bashir could decapitate the work of UNAMD in
Darfur and to what extent do you see the response of African tribes in Darfur
to the indictment of al-Bashir?
Answer
Indictment of a president is a frontal attack on the state and its capability
to deliver its duties, including the duty of protecting foreign troops in the
country. That is why the government is saying that the Ocampu affair has dealt
the state in Sudan a severe blow. No one should expect a wanted president to
protect international troops when he cannot protect himself. It is not saying
that the government would abdicate its responsibility to protect, we are saying
that if you compromise the potency of a state you should not ask it to perform
its functions properly. If this risky adventure by Ocampu were to be prosecuted
to the end there would be peace no where, neither in Darfur nor in the
neighboring regions like Chad or Central African Republic
Name
Abdelrahman Rashdan -
Profession
Question
As the advisor of Pres. Bashir, do you think that his earlier collaboration
with the ICC in handing in the two "suspects" of Darfur war crimes would have
avoided him the current problem? Or is it some kind of a planned intervention
that would have reached this level regardless of any other factors?
Many Thanks Dr. Ghazi,
Answer
No, it would have been the most foolish thing to do. You know the ICC draws
respect from non of the major powers in the world. It is a private European
club. You may be aware of the fact that the US has deep reservations about it
and has refused to sign it. So did China and Russia and India; and out of the
22 Arab states only two are signatory. UNSC Resolution 1593 which referred the
situation in Darfur to the ICC shamelessly makes the point that Sudanese may be
tried by the court if they were found guilty but not the Super Race -the
Americans- and if this was not included the resolution the US would have vetoed
the resolution. Another fact to remember is that the ICC has so far tried only
a Ugandan and a Congolese and now it wants to try a Sudanese. This makes it an
imperialist institution intended to punish the Africans who don't toe the line.
Any recognition of the court would give it a much-lacking moral authority and
would be disastrous for the case
of the Sudanese Government.
Name
Abdallah -
Profession
Question
Dr. Ghazi, it is claimed that the "Western powers" are those behind the current
charges of ICC against the honorable president, would you mind explaining more
about those powers and what exactly they need from Sudan?
Is it true that Israel is one of them, and why?
Answer
Israel has always been present in internal conflicts in Sudan. Also you may
have noticed the close cooperation between Zionist organizations in US and
Europe apparently backing the cause of the Darfurians. You may also have heard
one of the major rebels, Abdul Wahid, has opened an office in Israel. So Israel
is all over the place in fact. As to Western countries, it is France and
Britain who are openly supportive of the ICC. Other European countries are less
supportive. US on this particular case is waiting in the wings and cannot come
out openly to support ICC because their declared position is against signing
the ICC Treaty, but I suspect that they don't mind watching from afar as Sudan
stews in its own juice.
Name
hisham - Sudan
Profession
IT
Question
dear Sir
what is the step Sudan will fallow if the ICC go on in arrest Bashir?
Answer
This would be a most reckless and destabilizing move, not only to Sudan but to
the wider region. I hope they would not do it. There is no way Sudan could
respond to that by acquiescing. As of now, we are pursuing every possible
diplomatic avenue to avert such an eventuality.
Name
- - United Kingdom
Profession
Question
How can Bashir prove to the world that that he and the Sudanese government are
not guilty?
Answer
This is a very strange question, because normally when you take someone to
court you demand the prosecutors to prove that they are guilty. You do not take
someone to court and ask them to prove that they did not commit a crime.
Otherwise if we admit this kind of trial, we might demand to take all leaders
of the world, one by one, and ask them to prove that they are not guilty of
committing crimes. I personally would not mind such a procedure if it is
applied world wide starting with President Bush Of course.
Name
O.G. -
Profession
Question
Sudan blames the rebels for taking up the arms in Darfur. But they took it for
a reason. Darur has been for long an impoverished, ignored region, with no
share in power or resources. Why the Sudanese government allowed this from the
first place? And what is it doing to solve this grave problem?
Thanks
Answer
It is a fact held in agreement between all intellectual and academic
authorities that the problem of Darfur predates this government. Actually it is
a very old problem. I would not delve into this at this particular moment
because the time allowed for us is limited. But my answer to the question is
that, despite this old history of the problem, the present government was the
only government since Independence to recognize the problem and the demands of
the citizens of Darfur and to negotiate a political settlement that addresses
those very grievances you allude to in your question.
It was an agreement that was attended, witnessed, and hailed by almost
everyone, the UN, the US, the EU, the African Union, and the Arab League.
However it is some of the rebel movements who are now holding the nation
hostage to their demands in a way that has rendered the implementation of the
agreement difficult and has led to the escalation of violence.
Name
Rasheed -
Profession
Question
>From the Sudanese government's point of view, what is the scale of the
>atrocities in Darfur? Is it a genocide? If not, you can't be implying the
>situation there is peaceful, of course. What is the truth about what's going
>on in Darfur?
Answer
No one in the government ever denied the existence of a problem in Darfur. That
is why the government negotiated a peace settlement as I explained in the
previous answer. As to the extent of atrocities, I refer you to some articles
written by western scholars about the "War of Numbers", I think one of them was
by Professor Mammdani from US.
There are atrocities in Darfur on both sides simply because there is no nice or
clean war, but the question is whether we have the will and intention to end
the war peacefully or not. As to the figures quoted in the Western media, it is
a joke. Anything from 50,000 to 500,000 is cited. This is not exactly what I
call science. Recently, a UN Official all of a sudden decided to raise the
figure officially adopted by the UN from 200,000 to 300,000. When he was asked
how he came to that conclusion he was apologetic and evasive, yet the figure is
now quoted in all media outlets.
We must remember that some people make money out of our tragedies and in so
doing project a very gloomy picture, that is why no one talks of the fact that
over 80% of Darfur is in peace and that Sudan is officially one of the ten
fastest growing economies in the world. You can check this on the Internet in
sites of international financial institutions.
Name
Ben Freeman - United States
Profession
Question
How does the Sudanese government envision eventually achieving justice in
Darfur and holding all those responsible for transgressions committed in
Darfur, be they from the government or the rebels?
Answer
Our priority is peace not revenge. In the war with the South even more
atrocities had been committed, but we could achieve one of the most difficult
and arduous peace deals ending a 50-year war, simply because we decided that
peace was the objective and the priority. We also said we could address the
issue of grievances as part of a peace package. We have the same proposition to
Darfur, that is why we negotiated the deal I referred to earlier.
Now, this is not exactly the view held by the activists in organizations like
Save Darfur, or even Ocampu who in my view is more of an activist then a
lawyer. Their priority is to see some heads roll first which would take us no
where near peace.
Name
Ahmad -
Profession
Question
What are your expectations for the trial? What verdict(s) do you expect? How
will Sudan's response be?
Answer
I can assure you there would be no trial. I have given my opinion on the moral
authority -or lake of it- of the ICC to conduct a trial. We stick by that.
Name
Sara -
Profession
Question
Some observers say the latest ICC prosecutor's move will further escalate the
already tense situation in Darfur. What do you think?
Answer
I think I answered that, you may refer to my previous answers.
The move will embolden the rebels and make them raise the ceiling of their
demands. I think it was a well calculated move by a politician not a lawyer (I
mean Ocampu of course) to give the rebels an advantage and to keep the war
ongoing because that will keep him in his job with the fat salary he receives.
Name
mohamed - Somalia
Profession
Eng
Question
Asalamu Alekum my dear,
may i know what is the development upon the process of ICC?
do you think this is second attempt that west want to intervene in Sudan's
affairs after they fail various attempts?
we know justice but what name can you give this?
thank you.
Answer
This is a political move by Ocampu mounting on the back of justice. But I can
assure you brother that we are accustomed to it. We have been fighting for the
last nineteen years and have not lost a fight. This time we will fight it out
again.
Name
Editor -
Profession
Question
The session has ended. We would like to thank Dr. Ghazi Salahuddin Atabani for
taking the time to answer your questions, and all those who participated in the
dialogue.
We apologize for not being able to answer all the questions due to time
limitation.
Kind regards,
Muslim Affairs Team
Answer
Thank you all.
