I actually have been working in a team with a similar project for the last
year. Programming th humanoid wasn't quite my project, however, I did
construct the graphics. We used Poser4 to construct the human. From there
I exprorted it in 3ds formmat. For the purpose of our program, we wanted
each part (i.e. UpperArm, ForeArm, Head, Torso, etc) to be one object,
while the joints were defined with one point. Then we could handle the
movement by rotating the body part around its joint. This was done in
3dmax. After putting the body-parts in the right hierarchy, this worked
very well, but it CAN be slow. I should mention, though, that our program
needed only one humanoid of very good quality (a few THOUSANTS vertices).
After trying several formats, we concluded that VRML97 was the best.
However, we never tried the 3ds loader itself.
In any case, the power of 3dmax is great, and if you can see yourself
modifying graphics in the future, I would highly recommend that you get it.
I think it's worth its money. It can export in many different formats and
you can always download add-ons to export in even more! Also, it's capable
of doing anything you want! However, if you are interested in designing
humanoids, Poser4 is certainly easier to use and faster. Its powers are
very limited, but you can create new high-poly models in no time. Again, I
would recommend, though, that you first export these models to 3dmax and
use the "optimize" tool on them about 3 or 4 times. This will take
polygons that are approximately lined up and connect them while getting rid
of excess vertices. You can easily take a 4000+ model and make a ~1500
vertices model just by clicking a button a few times!
Anyway, if you tell me how you would like your humanoid to be constructed
(i.e. bones&skin, parts and joints, a plain model with textures, or
anything else), I might be able to construct something for you so that you
test it out. However, I have been having problems with it recently, so I
may need to take some time until I fix it before I can send you anything...
Paris
--- "Rudolf J.C. Buijs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Dave, John et al. -
>
> Thanks for all the replies. They are very helpful. I gather that you are
> using 3dmax to define your models. And either StarFire's 3ds loader or a
> custom file loader to get them into Java3D.
>
> Is there any way I could get my hands on a sample humanoid model (incl
> textures) to see if I can actually import it? I can only justify
> purchasing
> max if I can demonstrate that it's suitable for our purpose and worth the
> investment.
>
> How do you like 3dmax for this purpose? Will I need any other add-ons or
> tools? Or does anyone have other good (& cheaper) experiences?
>
> Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>
> Many thanks - Rudolf
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for Java 3D API
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of John Wright
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 14:35
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [JAVA3D] How to REALLY get humanoid content into a Java
> 3Dapplication?
>
>
> Dave,
>
> >From what I experienced in Everquest their zones outright crash with 175
> to 200 players (they did a year ago, they seem better now). I'm not
> sure how much level of detail they are doing to know how many humanoids
> might actually be visible at a time. I'd agree with you that even with
> a top end machine if there are about 30-40 humanoids within view the
> frame rate becomes "unacceptable". I'm hoping that with good level of
> detail adjustments we could actually support a player seeing an "army"
> of 50 or 100 marching. Again I agree that communications issues are
> more likely a limitation than our 3D rendering.
>
> - John
>
> "Yazel, David J." wrote:
> >
> > Yes true. We have hopes to do level of detail and dynamically adjust
> the
> > smoothness of the animation as the number of animated characters
> increase.
> > Already our own "shapes" have built in progressive meshing in that for
> any
> > shape we can ask for it to adjust to N percent of its total complexity.
> > Since the progressive mesh collapse order is pre-calculated and the
> vertices
> > re-ordered to match, it is extremely fast. In my experience everquest
> can't
> > handle more than about 40 characters at one time with exceptable frame
> > rates, and you have to turn off particles. But what we are thinking is
> that
> > the limiting factor of many characters being near each other will be
> comm
> > lag from the server rather than graphics.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: John Wright[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Reply To: Discussion list for Java 3D API
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 9:42 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [JAVA3D] How to REALLY get humanoid content into a
> Java
> > > 3Dapplication?
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > Sure, for a single 500 vertex model it isn't a concern (with decent
> > > hardware). My concerns are if those models shift up to say 1000
> vertices
> > > (better quality) and you put 100 or 200 of them in a scene! (not to
> say
> > > that we won't have problems with our method either). Quake,
> Halflife,
> > > etc all use low polygon count models and rarely have more than a few
> > > models in the scene at a time. It sure would be nice if Verant would
> > > comment on how they do this with Everquest.
> > >
> > > I agree, at this point there isn't much choice than to just make an
> > > educated guess and try it out.
> > >
> > > - John
> > >
> > > "Yazel, David J." wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Its too early to tell on speed, but since the vertex delta's are
> > > > pre-computed on a per key-frame bases, the only calculation is the
> > > > interpolation per frame for each vertex. On a 400-500 vertex model
> this
> > > > time is negligible. This is the same method used by quake and
> halflife
> > > to
> > > > great effect. We are in fact experimenting with half-life models
> > > converted
> > > > using 3d Exploration. As always we are just plodding along trying
> > > different
> > > > things. Our thought is also to attempt to "attach" items to the
> model
> > > using
> > > > control vertices, where for example you can specify two of the hand
> > > vertices
> > > > as anchors for items that are held, then use a single
> transformation
> on
> > > the
> > > > item to synchroize with the animated char. That way we can have
> smooth
> > > > animations of flexible characters, with rigid objects attached. But
> like
> > > > John said, we will have to see if its fast enough.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > From: John Wright[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > Reply To: Discussion list for Java 3D API
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 8:34 AM
> > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Subject: Re: [JAVA3D] How to REALLY get humanoid content
> into a
> > > Java
> > > > > 3Dapplication?
> > > > >
> > > > > As David said, it's not exactly a simple task. Our 3DS loader
> > > certainly
> > > > > can import excellent looking models (there are some quirks and my
> 3D
> > > > > modelers are getting better and better at making models that
> work)
> but
> > > > > animating them is possible in a couple different ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > To animate in real time you are going to have to sacrifice some
> > > quality
> > > > > until the hardware gets a LOT faster. Moving a few joints (what
> we
> > > > > intend to do) shouldn't be too bad but won't do the nice
> deformations
> > > of
> > > > > a "Hollywood" style animation (keep in mind that we can't do in
> real
> > > > > time what takes Max hours to generate a couple minute clip). I'm
> > > > > intrigued that David states they are going with morphing (my
> intuition
> > > > > tells me that is going to be too slow / CPU intensive).
> > > > >
> > > > > - John Wright
> > > > > Starfire Research
> > > > >
> > > > > David wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are a few people here with real-world experience, and
> they
> are
> > > > > > probably all different experiences :) www.roboforge.com is an
> > > > > application
> > > > > > using Java3d and has quite nice animation. You can bring a
> > > non-animated
> > > > > > humanoid into Java3d very easily using Starfire Lab's 3ds
> loader.
> I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > stay away from VRML in java3d as a primary loader unless you
> plan
> on
> > > > > writing
> > > > > > your own loader. Java3d does not have complex humanoid
> animation
> > > built
> > > > > in.
> > > > > > Even if you want to do something as simple as single skin
> keyframe
> > > > > morphing
> > > > > > you have a job ahead of you. We have just started work on this
> > > > > ourselves.
> > > > > > The path we are starting to experiment with is to model in
> 3dmax,
> > > use
> > > > > > character studio to define the animation, use 3d exploration to
> read
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > model and animations and then use the 3d exploration sdk to
> write
> > > out
> > > > > our
> > > > > > own file format. Inside of java3d we would be using a loader
> which
> > > can
> > > > > > read our own file format and then creating animation classes
> which
> > > morph
> > > > > > between keyframes using geometry by reference and the geometry
> > > updator
> > > > > > callbacks. If you want to do skin and bones directly inside
> java3d
> > > then
> > > > > it
> > > > > > is more difficult because you need to handle the
> transformations
> > > > > yourself.
> > > > > > I think it would be slow to set up an animation using a
> hierarchy
> of
> > > > > > transform3d's but you could try.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good luck. I know there are people on this list who have this
> > > working,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > no one can/will post their code on it, so you will have to
> figure
> it
> > > out
> > > > > > unfortunately.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dave Yazel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Rudolf J.C. Buijs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 6:24 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [JAVA3D] How to REALLY get humanoid content into a
> Java
> 3D
> > > > > > application?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are considering Java 3D for development of a new application
> > > which
> > > > > > involves animation of humanoids with motion capture data.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a must-have: the humanoids MUST look good and
> realistic!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would think that it would be best to use a 3rd party tool to
> > > define
> > > > > > texture-mapped geometry, export this to VRML (or .3DS etc) and
> use
> > > any
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the loaders.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What's a good way of going about this? I am thinking of content
> > > creation
> > > > > > packages like Poser or 3D Studio Max and exporting to VRML, but
> I
> > > don't
> > > > > know
> > > > > > for a fact that it will work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone have REAL-WORLD experience with this? What software
> are
> > > you
> > > > > > using that will actually allow creation of humanoids and import
> them
> > > > > into a
> > > > > > Java 3D application? Preferably in the H-ANIM 1.1 standard if
> that's
> > > > > > possible. Which loaders to use for Java 3D? Any gotcha's?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is what I have so far: I've searched the web for loaders
> (found
> > > and
> > > > > > tried latest X3D) and VRML models (H-ANIM 1.1 preferably), but
> so
> > > far I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > been unsuccessful in importing even one humanoid (every single
> VRML
> > > > > model I
> > > > > > managed to find runs into problems with PROTO's, I have some
> models
> > > > > > available if anyone else cares to try, the demo VRML runs fine
> on
> my
> > > > > > system).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many thanks in advance and many regards - Rudolf
>
>
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