Ditto for the image processing and visulization pros; we don't play games -- 3D Digital Image Processing Marketing and Technical Consultant > I wanted to reply to this. But Hotmail seems to be having trouble this > morning. If this gets double-posted, my apologies. > > David, > > I completely agree with you. I'm extremely frustrated with feeling I have > to defend Java for application development. In various forums, I'm > constantly running into both seventeen year-olds as well as veteran > professional game developers who dismiss Java with an attitude of it being > either too slow or only worthy of nonsensical web applets. After a moment's > questioning, I usually find that their experience extends to Java 1.1.x. > > I wish there was more Java Advocacy resources. Javagaming.org is a good > site, but frequently news links expire or are dead. For example, does > anyone know where to find the AVI of the JAMID demo? It would be unfair to > say this limited to Javagaming.org. Not even Fullsail has it, pointing back > to Javagaming.org. The same is true for many other Java3D-related links. > > I really hope your project succeeds. And I'm glad you were received so well > at GDC. There needs to be more Java3D applications people can download and > play with to see that the Java & Java3D formula really does work. > > With 3 years of Java2 development experience, 2 years of C++ prior to that, > and 10 years total industry experience, I presume to say I know what I'm > talking about. Three years ago, our team switched gears to devote 100% of > our application development to the Java2 platform. And we're impressing our > customers with what we can do. > http://www.ncube.com/pressroom/pressreleases/pr2002_3_25_tw.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Yazel, David J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 9:30 AM > Subject: [JAVA3D] The arrogance of aspiring game developers > > > > I posted this on javagaming.org also... > > > > This is kind of a rant, so forgive me in advance. > > > > People keep asking for proof that Java is good for gaming. Over and over > > and over... > > > > But I think I am getting out of business of being a "java3d gaming > > missionary"... I guess I am a little bit tired of trying to convince > people > > that java is a technology good for gaming. I know it is, but it seems > that > > people want proof in the form of a commercially successful, performative, > > good looking, state of the art, bleeding edge, 5 pass, bump mapped product > > running 110 fps on a Geforce II. > > > > > > Well there is currently no such available proof. If you need that kind of > > proof then you may have to wait a while, or use C++. Alternatively you > could > > prove it to yourself by coding a prototype, but that may be a frustrating > > experience if you are not a team with experienced Java programmers. > > > > One thing to look at is the likelyhood that your team will complete the > > project under the various languages. Building a commercial game under C++ > > is an expensive and time consuming endeavor, in my opinion it is much > longer > > than doing it in java. > > > > > > Guys, I hate to break it to you, but you have to know the chances of any > > group of "enthusiastic" developers actually completing a project and > > bringing it to market is extremely slim? And it has nothing to do with > the > > chosen technology, or money, or people. It has to do with project > > management, deadlines, schedules, design and the sheer will to succeed. > It > > seems to me that people spend too much time arguing about technology and > too > > little time working on their projects. > > > > When we started our project 2 years ago there was a number of similar > > projects being worked on. Most of them have faded away. There have even > > been some notably large commercial projects that have failed. Most of the > > these projects were C++/OpenGL and some were Java. We kept in close > contact > > with a few of them. One of them, called Arcanity > > (http://www.brickhousetrading.com/) got all the way to beta test before > they > > imploded, although I have hopes they will recover. Now there are over 70 > > MMORPG's under development (according to Gamespy). I am not worried about > > > that, because there are probably something like 500 CRPG's being built > right > > now... and some incredibly small number will ever see the light of day. > > Don't worry about the competition... worry instead about your ability to > get > > it done. > > > > The point is that it seems a bit, well arrogant, for people to be > > "demanding" proof that Java/Java3d will be able to perform at a > competative > > commercial level. There are plenty of people here who maintain it can. > > Even if you have doubts, try taking a look at your estimated development > > time will be. If it is 2 years then why worry about it? If it is less > than > > 2 years then you will be in the minority, since most commercial game > > projects are longer than that. No one can predict where the industry will > > be in 2 years. One thing is for certain though.... if you don't finish > your > > game then it doesn't matter where the industry is in 2 years. > > > > Back to the arrogance thing. When people come to the list and start > judging > > Java/Java3d through what they have read or some little test case they > > wrote... what they do is imply that "performance" is somehow important to > > the success of their project. How many triangles java3d can render per > > second should be near the bottom of the list of your priorities. It is > > arrogant to say that you need that extra 10 percent speed to be > > competative... thats a blatant falsehood and misconception. What you need > > more than that 10 percent is to finish a fun, playable game! To argue > about > > performance is like stating "I know I can do all I have to do... but can > > Java3d do what it needs to do?"... and this is really the height of > conceit. > > I think sometimes people unconsiously engage in all these evaluations, > > judgements and critiques so that they can avoid facing the reality of what > > is in front of them. > > > > My suggestion is to pick the technologies you like working with and feel > > productive with. If you are a C++ / OpenGL guy then knock yourself out > > writing a rendering engine and then writing your game. If you have the > > money just buy NetImmerse or Lithtech if you want to get right to building > > the game. If you like Java and you know OpenGL, but don't like the > > restrictions of a scenegraph architecture then try gl4java, but you will > > still end up writing a rendering engine before you write your game. > > > > Flipcode, Gamedev and OpenGl.org are full of hundreds of "groups" building > > games... games that never get finished. They spend years writing a > > rendering engine and then stall on the game itself. Many of these people > > are "experts" in 3d programming and are extremely critical about > everyone's > > work. I have seen them pick apart an image someone posted because the > > shadow volumes were inaccurately combining to over-darken overlapping > > areas... something I hadn't even noticed when I looked at the image. > People > > spend a lot of time figuring out how to render their games in some extra > > special fancy technique so they can be "competative". I agree there is a > > minimum acceptable quality that games must meet to be purchased, but that > is > > far below some of the techniques which are possible. Do you really need > to > > build all your geometry using subdivision surfaces so that someday you can > > increase your mesh densisty dynamically and get some berely perceived > > improvement in tesselation? Do you really need to define all your > textures > > using shaders so that someday when there are 4 texture units on cards you > > can have runtime dynamic per-pixel lighting with bump-mapping? I think we > > need to resist the allure of the sexy 3d visuals and concentrate on > pulling > > everything together to finish our projects. > > > > > > David Yazel > > > > > =========================================================================== > > To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the > body > > of the message "signoff JAVA3D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help". > > > > =========================================================================== > To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body > of the message "signoff JAVA3D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
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