Some clarifications, on: - reflashing your android phone. - getting a cheap G1 even when you do not live in the US. - what it means when it is said that 'your platform isn't used by anyone', and why if it isn't android or iPhone (or maybe pre), it's effectively history.
You can load a copy of android itself onto an android phone. Kind of like an update. I don't know if you'd call this 'reflashing the firmware', but that's certainly the spirit of it. I'll call it 'baseware' from now on. Your average android phone, in order to avoid hacking (interesting side-note about the OLPC's attempts to avoid viruses at the end of this post) will only allow android baseware that has been officially signed with google's key, or the phone manufacturer's key. A dev phone, on the other hand, comes 'unlocked' - it will accept all baseware, no signatures needed. This allows you to hack android itself (which is mostly open source, after all), and load up a copy on your phone. This kind of development system isn't at all what Apple has to offer, and even Windows Mobile doesn't make this as easy, mostly because WM itself isn't open source at all. This is the primary reason why you pushed my buttons with your title and original post. I'll repeat: Android is the absolute only phone out there that can be taken halfway seriously, which allows you to hack on the OS -itself- with the fiat and support of the platform developer. (sorry, zaurus and openmoko, but you suck, live with it, or build a better phone. kthxbye!) For some reason ordering a G1 dev phone outside of the US gets some 100 odd dollars tacked on for shipping. I have no clue what's up with that, could be a VAT thing. In fact, that's probably what it is (you don't pay MWSt./USt., a.k.a. VAT in the US if you order from across state borders, which is why tech stuff in the US is generally so much cheaper compared to western europe). However, as a university, you can deduct the MWSt. I'm sure, if you're going to order a bunch of them for a school course, google will help you out in getting the right receipts to pull this off. They might even sponsor your course. The point is: They care. I can tell you for 100% certainty that either import tariffs or BTW, depending on who actually sells you the phone (google US or e.g. google UK), is recoverably if its a legitimate business expense. And finally, onwards with why WM is -so- bad, and deserves all the crap it gets right now: Your entire stream of argument is a fundamental indicator that you don't really get it, and its very similar to what e.g. Steve Ballmer is still saying eventhough by now he really ought to know that Microsoft is losing on virtually all fronts, and Windows Mobile is an utter flop. You are making the capital mistake of not separating your user base into 'uses our platform' and 'just bought an expensive phone with a big screen'. Here's the deal: Until the iPhone came out, nobody* used mobile platforms. Yes, WM has been around for ages, and, yes, RIM (blackberry) phones are (well, were) quite popular in their day, but as a software platform, they were virtually unused. You can see the proof for this in sales for WM-based software, and in how few people used the RIM/WM browsers to browse to websites. Vanishingly small amounts of people. Then there's the buzz in the indie developer world about writing WM or RIM apps. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Bupkis. It didn't sell, it wasn't sexy, it wasn't easy, and nobody cared. The phones themselves got very much in your way when you tried to install anything. (J2ME is as bankrupt in this sense as WM by the way - there's no store or catalog, installing stuff is difficult, and unless your provider shipped the phone with some J2ME apps, 99.9%* of all phone users do not run any j2me software on it). The problem here is that phones have a crucial first use case which is more than enough for many people to buy them: Calling and Texting. Phones (especially WM phones) often are part of a salary and sort of a status symbol so its entirely normal for someone to have a WM phone and do nothing with it other than call and text. *THIS DOESNT MAKE IT A PLATFORM PHONE* - a WM phone owner that only calls and texts is not a WM phone user. He just bought something that was shiny. He's not actually using it - a simple cheap as heck nokia brick would have done just as well. So, you HAVE to check how many actual platform users you have. Until very recently this really didn't matter much because there were 0 phones on the market that got it right. Absolutely all platforms on the market, until the iPhone came out, had 99% of their userbases didn't actually use any of its platform features. (that is, didn't use the ability to install custom software on it). So, it didn't matter. Now, with the iPhone, and android, and probably the pre (that is, phones which understand that you need to make the platform part of it accessible to your average joe, or its just a nokia brick with a big screen on it), the days of WM and RIM are numbered. They will be going away real soon, because iPhones and android phones are far, -far- better. They are just as good at the 'look at how shiny and status- symboly I am' bit, and they, unlike the WM and RIM phones, actually have useful cool software bits you can use. And even if you don't care about extra software, they have a working webbrowser that is actually usable, which means: Win. corporations are very slow to change tack but they all do eventually. WM's death clock has started. If that isn't convincing enough for you, consider these simple things that average joe must absolupositively have before they'll even dare consider adding custom software to their phone: - a modicum of security, i.e. the feeling during the installation that what you're doing falls within normal use and isn't hacky. Us geeks love it when we get that feeling we're really taking our hardware to the next level. Average joe just gets scared crapless. Having to install a special program you wouldn't normally use, then download something off of some random schmuck's site, and then feeding that thing to the installer thing which needs a special data cable you don't normally use - that's all many bridges too far. Contrast to the iPhone, where the charging process is USB based even for average joe (it's the only cable you get), and due to the iPod functionality, every single user knows what iTunes is and is decently comfortable with it. Finally, there's a market place sanctioned (and run by) apple, instead of a bunch of wannabe sites that want to get your money and don't care about your peace of mind. A market place is crucial. No market place = Phone Fails. - a modicum of stability. The fact that WM has a task manager to kill processes is completely retarded. It makes the phone an instant unusable piece of crap that you should toss in the bin right away. That is simply not acceptable for average joe, and the fact that misbehaving programs exist and require a task manager in the first place means average joe, sooner or later, is going to have a nasty experience that is going to chase him off the notion of installing 3rd party software. And they'll tell their friends. Apple's extremism (blanket NO background apps) is also annoying (there's a right answer, and android is pretty close to it), but where apple's overreaction is annoying to developers, WM's solution is simply a deal breaker. A phone that ships with a task manager isn't a phone that your average joe should be installing 3rd party apps on. There's no way it's going to work. End of story. - a pointer. How do you even find these apps? How do you even remind average joe that there is such a thing as custom apps? If a phone does not ship with: 'Install extra software by pressing this widget', and doesn't make abundantly clear that the telco will not be eating their wallet for lunch when they use it (your average joe has been inundated with so much jamba spam that they are rightly very defensive), is going to fail. This is really hard to get right, too. Most telcos have been shipping with phones preset to visit their games / ringtones / etc portal and nobody so far likes it, and yet the app store is taking off. What's the difference? It's a great case to study if you are a marketer. Conclusion: WM is dead. Do NOT teach students to develop for it. That's like teaching them to do cobol. It's not dead-dead, just like cobol, but it should be obvious you're doing them a big disservice. *) A few million did, but compared to the size of the entire mobile phone market, those few million do not amount to more than a statistical error. It's effectively 0. 99.9% is obviously an exaggerating, I don't know the number, but you don't need to do too much research to figure out its a very high percentage nonetheless. Interesting side-line on the OLPC security model: The OLPC has no disk drives, but does go through many updates, and doesn't have the space on its internal drive, nor can it assume the network capacity in its surroundings (rural africa and all that) to ship with all supported languages and apps built for it, and can't connect to a centralized server (like apple iTMS) to download them. So, instead, the OLPC installs things via USB or via local network, where anyone can host an "I have apps and OS updates for you". Unfortunately, if the OLPC were to just install OS updates off of any old packet in the wifi or any old USB stick in the USB port, you'd quickly have very bad viruses on your OLPC. So, the OLPC doesn't accept anything unless it is signed by the OLPC organization. But what about OLPC hackers? Well, you could offer a button during bootup that says: I know the update on the USB stick isn't signed, but accept it anyway - but social engineering should easily take care of making naive people press that button anyway. Average joe -really- doesn't have the first clue when it comes to security, they naively think the world is all ponies and rainbows. You gotta love em. So, in order to run your own OLPC OS, or even a sugar beta, you need to first get your OLPC's serial number - which is not on the outside of the OLPC case, go to the OLPC site, and let them generate a security certificate just for your OLPC. You then need to add this cert to the USB stick (which means only YOUR OLPC will accept that USB stick), or, if you know what you are doing, add it to the OLPC's internal drive, meaning it'll now accept any USB stick if you hit the 'I accept this unsigned update' button during boot, under the assumption that someone is willing to hop through all those hoops knows what they are doing. For added security, the signing procedure takes 24 hours. Not because the OLPC foundation has crappy servers, but to add to the security aspect. There's absolutely no way you can install a virus on an out-of-the-box OLPC without a lot of access and 24 hour wait time. On Feb 6, 4:01 pm, "Adam G." <[email protected]> wrote: > Answers inline... > > On Feb 5, 12:04 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> wrote:> I'll > list some of the things you got entirely wrong. > > > 1. iPhones are exactly as locked out as android phones. You can solve > > this by jailbreaking them, which works for either one. iPhones DO NOT > > BOOT without a sim in there UNLESS you unlocked it first, which > > requires a sim card. > > Okay, sorry, you are right. I just didn't notice that because my > iPhone is also unlocked. So both suck :) > > > > > 2. Both the iPhone and the android phone are for sale pre-unlocked and > > activated. For iPhones, you're out 676 dollars and a lot of hassle > > (import from belgium or italy, where the law dictates that phones must > > be sold unlocked). However, the G1 comes straight from google and > > costs only 400. Big Win for Android. The G1 is also legally > > reflashable and all that, and google sells them just so you can do > > this. Contrast to Apple, who officially doesn't support any sort of > > hacking whatsoever, and has some fairly serious NDAs involved in > > getting a developer licence. > > Okay, good points. But the G1 dev phone is quite expensive for Germany > (shipping and tax) so we might just go and buy a phone fro the local > dealer here (which is around 420€). The reflash thing is also new to > me, but then one more point for G1. > > > > > 3. A dev licence for an iPhone is $100. For android, there is no dev > > licence. Anyone can get into it. > > Okay, next point I just discovered today. So again, Apple sucks, > Android rocks :) > > > > > 4. "Phone only works with google account" is an asinine con. > > Well, not if you share the phone with other developers in your > institute (Universities do not have much money...). But still a fake > account may do the trick. > > > 5. Android Market isn't the only market. You can roll your own (quite > > unlike iPhones). > > Nice! That's cool! > > > > > But, to get to the real crux of the issue: Windows Mobile -BLOOOOWS-. > > Nobody uses it, and therein lies all the proof you need. Whatever the > > iPhone and android are doing that is cramping your 'get developing for > > a device I bought off a retailer right away' style, is part of what > > makes WM suck. Evidently you can't have it both ways. You could try to > > use WM in your class, but the skills are useless. We all know WM is > > going to be ancient history by this time in 2011. The only game that > > matters now is the iPhone, Android, and whatever platform knows that's > > the competition to beat, and is built to beat it. Like, just maybe, > > the Palm Pre. Which, by the way, seems to be very open, though I > > haven't read up on the Pre too much. The amont of predevcamp's around > > the world is staggering though, so there's your rapidly growing > > community all taken care of (which WM, by the way, has absolutely > > nothing for. No communities at all). > > I do not agree here. If you look at the market you will find only from > HTC like 95% windows mobile and only 5% (the G1 and maybe G2) with > Android. Still the WM devices offer a lot more for business people > than the other two platforms. But this is not the deal here. I also > argee that the UI of WM sucks. But I do not beliefe that it will die > that fast. And there are also communities around it, even open source > and free software (e.g.http://www.opennetcf.com/). > > > > > If you really want to set up a course at your university, I strongly > > suggest you get in touch with google. I'm sure they can help you out. > > Okay, good idea. Maybe they can support us with some devices. > > Thanks for your comments, helped me alot towards Android! > > > > > On Feb 5, 10:51 am, "Adam G." <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > (Warning: long post, but please take your time to read this!) > > > > We use to develop mobile applications since some years at our > > > university. We have started years back with the HP iPaq and some Nokia > > > mobile phones and JavaME (Java is the main language at our > > > University). The problem with the iPaqs was the poor Java support and > > > for the Nokias (3310 or so) the small screen. But we got some > > > applications running. Later we decided to move to the Sharp Zaurus, as > > > a linux powered "open" device. But it turned out that the Java support > > > was not as good as we though, so we started to build new distributions > > > (based on some meta packaging system, do not remember the name any > > > more) with a better Java support and some addition features. But the > > > next problem came with the connectivity. No wifi on board, only with > > > extra cards. Finally we bought some Dell x50v and started to develop > > > in Java for that with the help of different open Java VMs for Windows > > > Mobile. But again this turned out to have poor performance and other > > > problems. So finally we decided to go native, i.e. .net on Windows > > > Mobile. We started to develop C# (almost Java) for these devices and > > > it turned out to work and perform very well. After some experience > > > with WM and .net we finally found the problem with that platform. It > > > is hardly to find free libraries for development in a University > > > environment (e.g. graph libs cost a lot). After three applications and > > > these problems I would like to start a new era here: I personally ow > > > an iPhone (and yes I love it). But as we want our students to > > > participate in this development, it would be the best to stay in the > > > Java world. So the best candidate is Android. So what is the problem > > > with Android, or better say with the G1, which is currently the only > > > hardware available? > > > > Android (G1) > > > Pros: > > > * Open Source platform > > > * Development based on Java & Eclipse > > > * Quickly emerging community > > > * Development on Win/Mac/Linux > > > Cons: > > > * Hardware closed, to direct deployment without dev phone or > > > "jailbreak" > > > * Phone only works with Google account > > > * Phone only runs with a sim card and a data plan > > > * 25$ to register for Android Market as developer > > > > Compared to the iPhone it seams to me that the G1 is more closed, even > > > if it is based an open source platform. You need the sim card, you > > > need a data plan, every thing not needed on an iPhone nor on a WM > > > device. > > > > What sucks about the iPhone is the new language (Objective-C and > > > Cocoa) and that the SDK is only available for Macs (which we do not > > > have here at the University). Here Android is the only platform that > > > is available for "all" OS. Windows Mobile is also limited to Windows, > > > but you just build your app, package it to a cab file and install it > > > on your phone. You don't need to subscribe somewhere as a developer, > > > you do not have to "break" your phone, you can just do what ever you > > > want. BUT: The UI of WM sucks so much that I really want to change to > > > a UI that you can really use with your finger and not a stylus. > > > > Overall I really would love to use Android and the G1 for our next > > > project, but it is really not that easy and open as it looks in the > > > beginning. > > > > Any experience with Android development so far? > > > > Cheers and sorry for the long post! > > > Adam --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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