Reinier, you were obviously not present in the very constructive and open discussions that were had with Sun this week about how to improve OSGi. What you see as "whining", I see as us standing up for ourselves.
If you want to talk about groupthink, how about the groupthink of this group? Here it seems to be to whine incessantly about the evil IBM and to accept blindly anything said or done by Sun. I over-generalise, as do you. On Mar 26, 9:22 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> wrote: > OSGi, like any other programming language/library/whatever, has a > community associated with it. Such a community has a certain > reputation; its only natural for communities to develop certain quirks > and groupthink. It is perfectly acceptable to take the community into > account when choosing one library over another. > > The groupthink of OSGi is to whine incessantly about the evil sun. > It's one of the main reasons why I don't like OSGi. > > You are certainly not the only loudmouth. 3 out of every 4 blogs I > read that praise the virtues of OSGi actually just give me a thousand > mile overview in one paragraph then spend the next 4 beating on sun. > Trust me, that is not the right strategy for convincing non-believers > to join your side. > > On Mar 26, 6:35 pm, Neil Bartlett <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Reinier, > > > It's a shame you choose to see it that way. You know, if Sun had > > admitted Java had a modularity problem 10 years ago then OSGi would > > not have been necessary. Today OSGi is the standard, Jigsaw is way too > > late and stands in opposition to the rest of the industry. > > > I really don't want to whip Sun either. Like the curate's egg, most of > > Sun is excellent and I feel they should not be throwing away goodwill > > on this issue. > > > Finally, "OSGi Advocates" are not an aggregated mass. I am a single > > opinionated loudmouth. Hating other OSGi advocates for what I say is > > just stupid. > > > Regards, > > Neil > > > On Mar 26, 4:40 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I'd like to 'me-too' Romain Guy and say that OSGi advocates annoy me. > > > There it is, OSGi advocates. Do with this information what you wish. > > > Just know that whipping on any attempt of Sun to join the > > > modularization game is exactly what makes people want to hand you some > > > valium, so - spectacularly- well done on proving Romain Guy's point. > > > > I don't like jigsaw's sparse technical documentation either, but I do > > > know that having a 'module' keyword is fantastic, and having a sun > > > java installer that is modularized is similarly fantastic. > > > > On Mar 26, 1:50 pm, Weiqi Gao <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Neil Bartlett wrote: > > > > > Romain, it's not like that at all. I believe there will be huge damage > > > > > to the Java ecosystem from having multiple competing module systems. > > > > > You want to write a module, which module system do you support? It's > > > > > as bad as what Microsoft tried to do to Java. > > > > > > If you don't want to use OSGi I really really don't mind. If you want > > > > > to fracture the Java platform, I mind a lot. > > > > > It seems to me that OSGi is the fracturing force. So could OSGi please > > > > just go away? > > > > > I have nothing against OSGi and the above paragraph is merely to > > > > illustrate a point. The point is that fracturing is inevitable. The > > > > sooner the vendors start to thinks of ways to make their pet mechanisms > > > > work together for their customers the better. > > > > > Just because some one invented OSGi twenty years ago doesn't mean others > > > > can't invent something similar to counter it. Think IE vs. Netscape, C# > > > > vs. Java, Eclipse vs. NetBeans, SWT vs Swing, Ruby vs. Smalltalk and > > > > Perl, Gcj vs. Harmony vs. the JDK, Scala vs. Erlang, JavaFX vs. Flex vs. > > > > Silverlight, java.util.logging vs. Log4j, SOAP vs. CORBA, etc. The list > > > > goes on and on. And all the UNIXes. And all the Linux distributions. > > > > And Windows vs. the Mac. And the GPL vs. the Apache License. > > > > > Fracture leads to variety and variety leads to survival. > > > > > Trying to get the whole world to use only one mechanism is not going to > > > > work. > > > > > Had Sun allowed Java to fracture a little on Windows, we would be > > > > writing Windows applications in Java rather than in C#. > > > > > Had Sun not allowed Java to be implemented elsewhere and in > > > > non-conforming ways, we would be writing Android applications in some > > > > other language. PHP perhaps. I don't know. > > > > > > On Mar 26, 8:12 am, Romain Guy <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> Technical merits aside, the OSGi advocates are really starting to > > > > >> piss > > > > >> me off. They go rant against anything that is even remotely like OSGi > > > > >> and they go rant against anything that doesn't use OSGi and could > > > > >> perhaps potentially use it. This is *not* a good way to advocate a > > > > >> technology. > > > > > >> On Mar 25, 5:37 pm, JodaStephen <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>> Joshua Marinacci said > > > > >>> "Jigsaw is the modularity planned to be built into the JDK. It's > > > > >>> purpose in life is to make the JRE modular. No other modules > > > > >>> system, > > > > >>> including OSGI, has the ability to do that because they simply can't > > > > >>> work at a low enough level to make things work (such as JVM > > > > >>> changes). > > > > >>> Of course that conveniently ignores Apache Harmony, which is a JDK > > > > >>> modularised using OSGi. I think you'll find there are some deeper > > > > >>> forces going on here. > > > > >>> phil.swenson said: > > > > >>> "jigsaw is core to Java 7 isn't it?" > > > > >>> No. Jigsaw is core to JDK7, not Java7. Huge difference. > > > > >>> Stephen > > > > > -- > > > > Weiqi Gao > > > > [email protected]http://www.weiqigao.com/blog/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
