On 25 August 2011 17:52, Steel City Phantom <[email protected]> wrote:
> trust me, i would love to try scala or some of these newer languages. but > when you have a client cutting a 7 digit check and saying "i want it done in > java", all i can really do about it is cash the check and write it in java. > this client doesn't want any of the newer stuff because in his eyes, it > hasn't had enough time in the market to mature and prove itself. i can't > fault him too much for that. > > im really worried here because after this project is done i have 3 more > that im going to be architecting, all in java. two i may be able to do in > scala, but the third, BIG one (possibly 8 digits by the time we are done) > must be done in java. > > ive been programming for 12 years now, 8 almost exclusively in java. ive > worked with some brilliant programmers along the way, im trying to recruit a > few of them currently but they are tied up in other projects at the moment. > i find it hard to believe that these top end guys will pass nice money > simply because the project isn't interesting or using the latest and > greatest. > > Java's also the name of a platform, it's sometimes a very revealing question to ask clients if they truly mean to dictate your language and programming style, or if they're mostly concerned with binaries they can throw at their tomcat installation and which will be understood by their ops team. In some cases, it's not unkown for a skunkworks project to rename scala-library.jar as apache-closures.jar and deliver classes/jar files as they always have in the past :) If stuck with code review, code escrow, or other such arrangements, then consider querying if all the *Tests* must be written in Java as well! Even this kind of usage of another language will attract developers looking to expand their horizons... None of this is specific to Scala, you can apply the same logic to Clojure, JRuby, Mirah, Jython, Jaskell, etc. It doesn't matter what language you choose, what I've witnessed is that *anything* which goes beyond Java is often an effective tool for attracting and retaining talent. On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Kevin Wright <[email protected]>wrote: > >> >> >> On 25 August 2011 16:20, Steel City Phantom <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I work out of Pittsburgh. we have two world class universities about a >>> half hour down the road. Carnegie Mellon University's computer science >>> department is one of the best in the world, and University of Pittsburgh >>> isn't shabby either. so i have to ask, where are all the good java >>> developers? >>> >>> we have been trying to staff out a project for 6 weeks now. every resume >>> we get is from people with 4-5 years experience. I do tech interviews on >>> them for the technologies we are using and its all the same, they have a >>> vague understanding of how to use the technologies (spring, hibernate, >>> struts, nothing major) work, but for my needs, that puts them in the class >>> of jr developer. i need senior guys that have done this already, lived the >>> learning curve, knows how to fix issues, knows how to squeeze every last bit >>> of functionality out of these technologies, and i can't find them. >>> >>> we are paying good market rates for these guys, so its not like we are >>> being cheap. i refuse to believe that Google swallowed all the good java >>> guys when they opened their development center here in Pittsburgh a few >>> years ago. >>> >>> its so bad that i had one candidate that i interviewed a few weeks ago. >>> he got irritated with me when i was drilling him on the technology. his >>> actually had the huevos to say to me "I have a masters degree from CMU in >>> computer science, i don't care what technology you are using, i can figure >>> it out and use it" to which i replied "that may be true, but that makes you >>> a junior developer in my eyes. as a senior developer, im not paying you to >>> figure it out, im paying you to step in and do it" he had 4 years >>> experience writing web pages for a marketing firm. why the recruiter even >>> thought he would pass the test is still beyond me. >>> >>> where have all the good guys gone? is a 9-10 year experienced very >>> seasoned java guy really demanding salaries north of 90K now or what? >>> >>> -- >>> You want it fast, cheap, or right. Pick two!! >>> >> >> A couple of my own experiences here, so completely subjective, but some of >> this is probably affecting you: >> >> 4-5 years is about long enough to get truly frustrated with >> Java/Struts/Spring/Hibernate/etc. and want to seek something more >> productive, there are a lot of alternate languages out there fighting for >> developer mindshare - and Java is *not* seen as a sexy choice. I personally >> took great pleasure in switching to Scala, being finally available to avoid >> the great swathes of boilerplate and ugly, non-type-safe XML configuration >> files was like a breath of fresh air. >> >> It's now a well established meme not to look for <insert-skillset-here> >> developers, but to just look for *good* developers, regardless of their >> experience in a particular skillset. When I see a prospective >> client/employer who has a very specific pick-list, my thoughts (in no >> particular order) are: >> - This job description was put together by HR (or the agency) from a bunch >> of buzzwords >> - They're only after a junior developer, not someone with enough >> experience to stand up and question "Is struts really the best choice here?" >> - I only see old technologies listed, the job is unlikely to be either >> challenging or interesting >> - The specification doesn't actually describe what the job is, just that >> you want a vacuum-formed and easily replaceable "<insert-skillset-here> >> developer" >> - That you think your challenges can be solved by someone who's done it >> all before, that there's no innovation required and nothing new to be seen >> in the job >> - That it will be boring >> >> At the very least, consider starting a small trial project in Scala (or >> clojure, python, groovy, haskell, etc.) and mention this as a "nice to have" >> skill in the specification. It suddenly makes you look a whole lot more >> fresh and interesting. Also, are you making any mention of agile practices >> in the job spec (BDD, pair programming, continuous deployment and >> such-like), as this seems to attract people as well. >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
