And I agree. I generalized a bit. Here in my country (Brazil) for example.... my current income is 3x more than the average of the country, but it's around 70% of the price of an American programmer with the same skills.
Cheers, On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Jon Tascher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > I just wanted to point out that price does not directly correlate to > quality. Although more experienced programmers who (presumably) produce > better code will often charge more, this is not always the case and > certainly does not translate to the overseas market. I am sure there are > many excellent and qualified foreign programmers who are able to charge less > than American programmers due to the differences in cost of life. That is > the usually a reason for outsourcing overseas. Just because someone is > cheap(er) does not necessarily imply inexperience or poor skills. > Jon Tascher > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 3:57 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Send jobs mailing list submissions to >> jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of jobs digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Important Info & Request to all members in this forum abt >> my initial pos (Guilherme Blanco) >> 2. Re: Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ yrs (Steve Manes) >> 3. Re: Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ yrs of exp & >> good client references (Robert Gulian) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 16:09:25 -0300 >> From: "Guilherme Blanco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] Important Info & Request to all members in >> this forum abt my initial pos >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Cc: jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> Message-ID: >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> Actually it seems Ben did it wrong. >> >> None here born with all knowledge, and surely they improved their >> skills by working hard to improve themselves while reading, >> researching and experimenting. >> So, none here has enough words to point a finger on someone else's >> face, talk about skills, etc. >> >> You pay for your code and if you want to pay less, your code will be >> less secure, organized, implemented. >> That's what differ senior, junior, etc and also good and bad programmers. >> I'll never put my money into a 15yrs. old boy that tells me that knows >> PHP, since I know I have a great chance to have holes in my code. >> >> Short version: The amount of money you pay is the code art equivalent you >> have. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 3:47 PM, sundar rajan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> > Hi All, >> > >> > Thanks for all the criticism to my post & the reply sent by Ben. >> > >> > Actually I never know who this guys Ben is , I have never worked with >> > him >> > before & ofcourse he is not my client too. >> > >> > I have been in this freelancing profession for abt 3+ yrs & never got >> > such >> > criticism from my clients , though I had troubles / faults in the >> > project >> > that I work with my clients , they use to tell me the changes & I do >> > make >> > sure to deliver those changes as per the client's requests. >> > >> > I never leave my clients in trouble with frustration , even though if I >> > do >> > some mistakes I do admit to my clients & they give me a chance to work >> > on it >> > & prove it & I have done so. >> > >> > You all can have a look at my online portfolio at >> > http://www.sundarrajan.com >> > , besides I have also been member in various freelancing forums & have >> > good >> > client reference , reputation. >> > >> > If you all wish to help a fellow programmer like me , just request Ben >> > to >> > send us what project I worked that had the issues as he said. To the >> > best of >> > my knowledge I don't think there shud be such projects , but if there >> > were >> > some issues the client would have got resolved it with me , they >> > would'nt >> > speak bad abt me to a third party code auditor like Ben (because all the >> > clients I have worked were very genuine , pleasant & helpfull in >> > nature). >> > >> > Pls guys never think bad & have a negative impression abt me, due to >> > Ben's >> > posting , though I'm not located in US , I do work with clients based at >> > US >> > / UK etc,.. >> > >> > 510.455.4387 this is my US skypein number , you can call me in this >> > number >> > if you have issues with this post. >> > >> > I wonder why Ben has posted such critics abt my thread publicly on this >> > forum. >> > >> > Anyway lets wait for a good solution. >> > >> > --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Sean Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > From: Sean Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ >> > yrs >> > ofexp & good client references >> > To: "Andrew Wint" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Cc: jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> > Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 9:55 PM >> > >> > I disagree. This wasn't a former employer complaining about a >> > consultant's >> > work, this was another consultant, a competitor if you will, stating as >> > fact >> > something that no one can possibly double-check. I think it's unfair, >> > and am >> > surprised that, on a list dedicated to helping consultants find jobs, >> > you >> > folks would not be more concerned about it. I think this is the first >> > time I >> > have seen someone in a public forum accuse someone of something and not >> > be >> > called to provide proof of their claims. Very puzzling. >> > >> > No one knows what the job requirements were, what the client's >> > expectations >> > were, or what the budget was. Did the client provide enough time and >> > budget >> > to have the job done right, or did they just say, "Get it done for next >> > to >> > nothing," and then when they realized the short-sidedness of their >> > approach, >> > hire Ben to clean up the mess rather than go back to the developer they >> > low-balled and admit that they didn't give him enough time and $$ to do >> > the >> > job correctly. We don't know. Ben won't even tell the list who the >> > client >> > was or produce evidence of the inferior work. So to my mind, this whole >> > thread is quite unfair to the developer who originally posted his >> > availability and should be dropped. >> > >> > Finally, as you read this, please keep in mind that we are a company >> > that >> > employs people on this list, that's why I subscribe. I have employed >> > developers here in the US and in six other countries. I find *no* >> > geo-political differences in coding skills. We evaluate developers based >> > on >> > samples, client references and their ability to follow directions. I >> > have >> > had more than a few developers who are so focused on developing "great >> > code" >> > that they completely ignore the project specs, budget and time-lines. >> > Those >> > people don't last long, but people who follow directions do. >> > >> > Again, without knowing the original assignment that Sundar was given and >> > what went on between he and the client at that time, facts which I doubt >> > even Ben knows, we really can't draw any useful conclusions nor should >> > we >> > try. >> > >> > Just my $.02. >> > >> > sean >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Andrew Wint wrote: >> > >> > All he did was to provide transparency, now we are discussing the >> > issues. >> > Kristina gave very valid points about the 'delivery of crappy code' and >> > not >> > being able to take action because they are in another country. >> > Another point is that this why we have standards of development >> > practices, >> > these standards shouldn't be compromised they can bend a bit but not >> > break. >> > Sundar needs to seek them out and adhere to them. >> > I know it may seem harsh but it may help Sundar down the line in his >> > growth. >> > As well as protect a small struggling company, thinking they are saving >> > money but falling into a trap. >> > Ben did a good thing. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Aug 9, 2008, at 10:50 AM, RDP wrote: >> > >> > I'm sorry Donna, but I disagree. >> > >> > It's perfectly fine to express a view about someone's work. >> > >> > Of course we make errors in our code, everybody does. But you can't >> > evaluate experience without examining ones work. >> > >> > And employers DO give out this information. Especially if an individual >> > was >> > let go because of inability. >> > >> > Finally, I'm having a problem imagining rows of unemployed PHP coders >> > down >> > and out on skid-row in cardboard boxes, homeless, because their work was >> > criticized. >> > >> > Bye, >> > >> > Rob >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Donna Marie Vincent >> > To: jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 9:26 AM >> > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ >> > yrs >> > ofexp & good client references >> > It's not only unethical to publicly disparage an individual's ability to >> > perform a job, you could be subject to legal action. >> > >> > Have you ever made an error while performing your job duties? >> > >> > Even a former employer would not give out this type of information. Do >> > you >> > want to be responsible for someone not getting work, and ending up >> > homeless >> > on the street, because of your personal opinion about their work, which >> > may >> > or may not be valid? >> > >> > This is not the same as publicly criticizing a particular product, or a >> > company's business practice. >> > >> > >> > >> > --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Ben Sgro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > From: Ben Sgro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ >> > yrs >> > of exp & good client references >> > To: >> > Cc: jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> > Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 2:17 AM >> > >> > Hey, >> > >> > I audited a site this guy built - it was full of holes - SQL injection, >> > XSS, default passwords on CMS admin accounts, etc. >> > >> > Also, the code was PHP4 w/HTML sprinkled all over it, cut and paste, no >> > functions. No layouts, templates or >> > smarty. >> > Basically, impossible and very time consuming to make updates. >> > >> > Be sure to request some source before you work with him. >> > >> > - Ben >> > >> > sundar rajan wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi >> > , >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm a Freelance Telecommuting PHP/MySQL Programmer with about 5+ yrs >> >> of experience in building web applications . >> >> >> >> >> >> Following are the type of small / contract jobs that I take: >> >> /Creating Custom scripts >> >> Member signup with email verification & login with session >> > authentication >> >> Dynamic PDF File generation from the database information using FPDF >> >> libraries >> >> Command line processing of PHP scripts >> >> Installing CAPTCHA security code for the forms >> >> Google Maps <http://maps.google.com/> API to display a location with >> > >> >> pop-up >> > info >> >> XML parsing to database >> >> CSV parsing to database >> >> RSS feeds using Carp >> >> Handling File uploads >> >> Generating statistics reports from the database values >> >> Generating Graphical reports from the database values >> >> Generating Excel download from the database >> > values >> >> Working with complex queries in Mysql console >> >> Building application with SEO friendly URLs >> >> Installing MySQL , Apache , PHP , SVN , AWStats & software apps in >> >> linux boxes >> >> / >> >> I can also take up bigger projects with proper specification documents >> >> along with the UI/HTML prototypes. >> >> >> >> >> >> Checkout my online portfolio at http://www.sundarrajan.com >> >> <http://www.sundarrajan.com/> to know more about my skill-set , >> >> experiences , projects as >> > well as client references. >> >> >> >> As a verified premier paypal member since 2005 with over 70 seller >> >> reputation , I can accept paypal / credit card payments. >> >> >> >> Please do contact me for further details , if you have any jobs. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> With regards, >> >> Sundar >> >> Phone: (+1) 510.455.4387 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> >> >> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com >> >> >> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> > >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> > >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> > >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> > >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> > >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> > >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> > >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> > >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > >> > -- >> > Sean Fulton >> > GCN Publishing, Inc. >> > Internet Design, Development and Consulting For Today's Media Companies >> > http://www.gcnpublishing.com >> > (203) 665-6211, x203 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> > >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> > >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> > >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> > >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer >> CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant >> Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902 >> MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> URL: http://blog.bisna.com >> Rio de Janeiro - RJ/Brazil >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:20:38 -0400 >> From: Steve Manes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ >> yrs >> To: jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Kristina Anderson wrote: >> > There are some on this list who've previously said that "the market" >> > will take care of situations where people want to pay low wages to >> > programmers. One of the ways that "the market" might do this, >> > theoretically, is to make sure that people find out the hard way, when >> > they hire cheap programmers >> >> I'm just not sure that's a lesson that can be learned by singling out >> one programmer for critical review. Anyone who's been in this business >> for a few years has heard the nightmare outsourcing stories and knows >> that the market for software talent works pretty much the same as it >> does buying a TV or a hamburger: caveat emptor. If they choose to >> ignore it, well, that's who lottery tickets are made for. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:55:29 -0400 >> From: Robert Gulian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about 5+ >> yrs of exp & good client references >> To: jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Ben, >> >> Your .02$ may backfire on you. You may have an obligation to your >> client to report your opinion but you have an obligation not to report >> it to the world at large. I believe it was a bad judgement on your >> part and if enough people feel likewise, it may be you who loses work >> over it. >> >> Just my .02$. >> >> Bob >> >> On Aug 9, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Ben Sgro wrote: >> >> > It's my .02$. People are free to make their own decision. >> > >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Aug 9, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Donna Marie Vincent >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > wrote: >> > >> >> It's not only unethical to publicly disparage an individual's >> >> ability to perform a job, you could be subject to legal action. >> >> >> >> Have you ever made an error while performing your job duties? >> >> >> >> Even a former employer would not give out this type of >> >> information. Do you want to be responsible for someone not getting >> >> work, and ending up homeless on the street, because of your >> >> personal opinion about their work, which may or may not be valid? >> >> >> >> This is not the same as publicly criticizing a particular product, >> >> or a company's business practice. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Ben Sgro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> From: Ben Sgro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] Freelance Remote PHP/MySQL gig with about >> >> 5+ yrs of exp & good client references >> >> To: >> >> Cc: jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> >> Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 2:17 AM >> >> >> >> Hey, >> >> >> >> I audited a site this guy built - it was full of holes - SQL >> >> injection, >> >> XSS, default passwords on CMS admin accounts, etc. >> >> >> >> Also, the code was PHP4 w/HTML sprinkled all over it, cut and >> >> paste, no >> >> functions. No layouts, templates or >> >> smarty. >> >> Basically, impossible and very time consuming to make updates. >> >> >> >> Be sure to request some source before you work with him. >> >> >> >> - Ben >> >> >> >> sundar rajan wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hi >> >> , >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I'm a Freelance Telecommuting PHP/MySQL Programmer with about 5+ >> >> yrs >> >> > of experience in building web applications . >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Following are the type of small / contract jobs that I take: >> >> > /Creating Custom scripts >> >> > Member signup with email verification & login with session >> >> authentication >> >> > Dynamic PDF File generation from the database information using >> >> FPDF >> >> > libraries >> >> > Command line processing of PHP scripts >> >> > Installing CAPTCHA security code for the forms >> >> > Google Maps <http://maps.google.com/> API to display a location >> >> with >> >> >> >> > pop-up >> >> info >> >> > XML parsing to database >> >> > CSV parsing to database >> >> > RSS feeds using Carp >> >> > Handling File uploads >> >> > Generating statistics reports from the database values >> >> > Generating Graphical reports from the database values >> >> > Generating Excel download from the database >> >> values >> >> > Working with complex queries in Mysql console >> >> > Building application with SEO friendly URLs >> >> > Installing MySQL , Apache , PHP , SVN , AWStats & software apps in >> >> > linux boxes >> >> > / >> >> > I can also take up bigger projects with proper specification >> >> documents >> >> > along with the UI/HTML prototypes. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Checkout my online portfolio at http://www.sundarrajan.com >> >> > <http://www.sundarrajan.com/> to know more about my skill-set , >> >> > experiences , projects as >> >> well as client references. >> >> > >> >> > As a verified premier paypal member since 2005 with over 70 seller >> >> > reputation , I can accept paypal / credit card payments. >> >> > >> >> > Please do contact me for further details , if you have any jobs. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > With regards, >> >> > Sundar >> >> > Phone: (+1) 510.455.4387 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> >> > >> >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> >> > >> >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> >> >> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com >> >> >> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> >> >> >> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> >> http://www.nyphpcon.com >> >> >> >> Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> >> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List >> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> > >> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online >> > http://www.nyphpcon.com >> > >> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP >> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://lists.lists.nyphp.org/pipermail/jobs/attachments/20080809/6f329641/attachment.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> jobs mailing list >> jobs@lists.nyphp.org >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs >> >> End of jobs Digest, Vol 22, Issue 14 >> ************************************ > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > -- Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://blog.bisna.com Rio de Janeiro - RJ/Brazil _______________________________________________ New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online http://www.nyphpcon.com Show Your Participation in New York PHP http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
