I'd like to ask that we have a moratorium on this type of discussion (personal attacks
and
political debates) for the rest of the week.
I have a cousin who is a Manhattan cop and a friend who worked for Morgan Stanley who
are
still not accounted for. If either of them has perished, the political debate won't
bring them back
and is frankly, infuriating.
The list has been a light because of the empathetic wishes and encouraging reports.
It would be
nice if it could continue to serve that primary purpose for just a little while longer.
Brenda
On 12 Sep 2001, at 13:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I ask that Debra Shea Azeem and Colin and Patrick Leader not read this post.
> If they choose to do so I ask that they not comment. Lets see how well they
> obey anothers request since so many have stated emphatically that thats
> verboten to disregard someone elses requests.
>
> First a little matter of who contacted who first:
>
> Debra Shea contacted me first. proof delivered.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Colin is just loaded with compliments as usual. It must be dark in there
> > where his head is located.
>
> There you go again, describing yourself while trying to insult someone
> else.
>
> > Marcel. who has been forcefiully begged to not send anything to Mr.
> > Personality.
>
> Begged? Really? Looked to me like a definite and polite request, another
> one, after many such requests that you've chosen to ignore. I'm amazed
> Colin can still be polite about it. You don't deserve it.
>
> Debra Shea>>>
>
> She wasnt writing to the list as evidenced by her addressing me directly. She
> was writing to me. I responded to the above.
>
> Ok you have all had your fun attacking Marcel Deste as a human being. Even my
> wife. Are you all proud or do you now all go and wash your hands with Patrick
> Leader.
>
> I get between 250 to 400 emails per day. Some are digests of economic news
> and political news. I would stack my information input and real fact input up
> against anyone on this list. I read Arabic newspapers as well as Euro and
> Western and even Russian newspapers and editorial opinions. I frequently
> visit congressional testimony archives and National Security and defense
> websites.
>
> I have always had no restrictions to email that is sent me even from my
> ideological adversaries. I read them all. Some I skim but I see all the ones
> in which I am mentioned. I have always believed that every person is entitled
> to his own beliefs. Clearly and categorically not everyone on this list
> believes that. That doesnt mean that their beliefs are free from criticism.
> Mine included.My only "crime" has been to want to keep personal and
> potentially incendiary ideological debates from intruding into everyone elses
> life since the actual purpose of the JMDL is music not Ideological Jihads.
> Consideration for other people is bad. Mea cupla.
>
> In fact they believe the opposit. So Im a "cyber-rapist" and
> "cyber-terrorist". After yesterday Im not sure many of you understand the
> meaning of the word if you use it to describe me. All I have ever done is to
> challenge political or ideological ideas. I have never called Debra Shea a
> bad person. Shes a Marxist ideologically but I have never called her names.
> Just differed with her World Views. Another of her supporters said "Im just
> as big a pinko Communist as you" to Ms. Shea. Is that person a
> cyber-terrorist. If not why not.
>
> Sarcasm directed at anothers political views is not insulting their wife.
>
> I fully realize that the communists on this list hate my ideas. When real
> Communists have taken over other countries in this century mass murders of
> their ideological opponents were the very first thing they did. Hungary,
> Poland, the Steppes States, Ukraine etc. Its all part of the mindset of those
> who choose to supplant facts and reality with myths and fantasy world views.
> They MUST eliminate their intellectual adversaries just as they want to get
> rid of anyone who will challenge their views. Like Communism and Marxist
> Economic models. This recent event in New York is exhibit A. I provide a
> couple of quotes from todays Chronicle. A very liberal newspaper that attacks
> George Bush every single day:
>
> SF Chronicle. Morning edition.
> Headline: US Intelligence failed to predict terrorists actions.
>
> "How such a large scale coordinated effort went undetected by law enforcement
> and Intelligence service is incomprehensible except that for the last decade
> we have allowed our capabilities to lapse in the one area we need most, human
> intelligence" Scott Ritter former head of the UN inspection team in Iraq.
> Page A-7
>
> {{NB. Mr Ritter also testified at congressional hearings that the buildings
> bombed by the Clinton Administration in Baghdad during the impeachment
> hearings were all known to have been abandoned}. Wag the dog.
>
> "Former Vice president Al Gore headed a White House Commission on Aviation
> safety but there is no mention in this report of the prospect of terrorists
> hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings" Page A-7
>
> "Two former CIA operatives with long recent experience in counter terrorism
> program for the Middle east assert that the agency was virtually dismantled
> (during the Clinton administration)." Page A-7
>
> " They didnt dismantle it by taking people out. They dismantled it by putting
> people in who knew nothing about it, to run it, (political appointees) people
> who have never even been overseas....The branch chiefs have never been to the
> Middle East, dont speak Arabic, dont speak Persian". Page A-7
> >>>>
>
> So when I see all the hand wringing about yesterday and this terrorist attack
> act of war it came as no suprise to me. Many of you have attacked me for
> being a Clinton "hater". Yesterday is why. I have good reason to. Unless you
> are today waving a Palestinian flag today and celebrating along with the
> Palestinians you do to. Things like yesterday dont happen by accident. They
> have been warned about many times by the same people who are quoted above.
> Are they Clinton "haters" for warning us or are they simply people who know
> different "facts". If they were on this list they would be my friends and
> Azeems and Colins and Debras enemies.
>
> I see this person Laurent posted the obvious and again is insuilted by Colin.
> Colins big point in the middle east thread was that "both sides" are doing
> bad things. Really. Equal deal huh? Well Colin when have the Israelis ever
> done what the Islamics did yesterday. Attack some distant country and murder
> 10-20,000 people. Were they justified? Am I impertinent for stating the
> obvious? Colin is wrong. Dead wrong. And he should admit how wrong he has
> been for equating the two sides. But he wont. Yesterday was a suicide
> bombing. Exactly what has been happening in Israel. For two or six months.
> Bigger but the same.
>
> The United States launched the Bosnia campaign against Christians to stop the
> killing of Muslims. Islam ever do that. The Koran clearly states that suicide
> is a sin. Look that one up. It also clearly states that Muslims can marry
> Jews. Yet these madmen constantly use this book as their justification for
> New York. But I digress....
>
> My point is this... ideological differences are what life is all about. But
> some of you seem to simply despise anyone knowledgeable to challenge your
> views. You dismiss any fact you disagree with as "opinions" as if the Isreali
> war with Jordan in 1948 for instance is an "opinion" as opposed to a fact.
> You castigate and villify the person as opposed to that persons facts and do
> so with your own.
>
> But you also have to realize that your choice of doing so has consequences
> like yesterday. When you dismiss critics of the Clinton administration as
> simply "hate mongers" (as opposed to an Administration that dismantled our
> intelligence agency) it means you accept the responsibility if they were
> right and you were wrong. Why should Azeem be speechless. After all he has
> been busy attacking Laurent who has simply been pointing out the mentality of
> Israels enemies which is what was manifested in New York. The videos of the
> Palestinian celebrations are in Azeems and Colins lap not laurents. Maybe if
> Azeem wasnt too busy claiming "both sides" are equally bad and pondering
> where his view inexhorably led if applied to geopolitics he might respect
> Laurents position which has been categorically vindicated with the blood of
> 10,000+ New Yorkers. It wasnt "sarcasm" that struck the World Trade Center
> for all of you who think that sarcasm is the worlds greatest crime.
>
> It was the same suicide bombers who have plagued Israel ever since Yassir
> Arafat (whose wife was kissed by Hillary Clinton after she said that the Jews
> were murdering palestinian children by poisoning their drinking water-another
> fact (the kiss not the poison)reported in the New York Times) turned down the
> extrordinary offer of Ehud Barak.
>
> Whats the point of all this political stuff. Simply stated many of you have
> closed your minds to reality. You are so blinded by hatred of certain ideas
> that you dont even recognize that your hatred exists. And you hate the poeple
> who have the ideas you hate. You feed upon each others like mindedness to the
> extent that when the consequences of your own views is manifested you neither
> recognize it nor do you accept responsibility for it. Laurent has just as
> much right to post his views as Colin does to tell us about dog penises and
> dog venereal diseases which he seems motivated to do frequently. Without a
> peep from any of you.
>
> There is absolutely no place for the personal attacks you have all engaged in
> and you have done that. And why because as the political facts demonstrate
> you arent always right. You valued "pro choice" over National Security in
> election after election. What happened yesterday is the price. The Middle
> east experts statement (not Marcels) shows why that statement is true. His
> statement also applies to Chinese espionage activities from 1992 to 2000
> which we will also have to deal with. 1500 experienced fighter pilots have
> resigned from the Air Force simply because of Tailhook. While they were
> punished you (not me) let the actual predator in the oval office skate. Not
> that they did anything but because by simply being there Pat Schroeders jihad
> had ended their careers. There are consequences to this liberal fixation of
> the political over the hard reality of National Security. If we now need our
> best fighter pilots to now go after the terrorists in a foreign country we
> wont have them because of Pat Schroeders war against "sexual harrassment"
> something Juanita Broderick was ignored for claiming.
>
> So dont wring your hands over New York. Open your eyes. Years ago your
> liberal "We dont need no stinkin military spending" ancestors in Congress
> starved the military of funding because there was just no way that this Japan
> place could ever touch our shores.The draft passed by one vote in congress
> one WEEK before Pearl Harbor. How many of you listers have said we should cut
> defense spending because we dont need it. The responsibility for yesterday
> rests with those who took away this country's ability to know when it was
> going to happen. See the above Chronicle quotes for the person responsible.
> Pardon the sarcasm but it isnt Rush Limbaugh. Its whoever put political
> appointees in charge of our lives instead of experts because the experts had
> different political views.
>
> We live with the consequences of our views and our votes.
>
> That someone differs with you does not make them wrong and you right.
> Events do that.
>
> The one good thing that has come out of all this for me is to know who are
> the people who truly have hate in their hearts. people who think sarcasm is
> worse than negligence. You all saw me in person in Topsfield for three days.
> Did you see a person who hates anyone? Did I say one word of negativity to
> anyone? Was there anyone I didnt show total respect for even my political
> adversaries. On the other hand you hate my words or ideology when political
> topics are on the list. If you have read this post you must have some
> introspection to consider. This is a free country.
>
> Lastly I wish to point out one last thing. God broke out in Congress today.
> All those staunch foes of prayer in schools were all talking about God. God
> bless America. God Bless this country. God bless us all. The session was
> commenced with a fervent and long prayer to God. Imagine that. Not one
> Democrat shriveled up and died. It even happened on Public Property. Wheres
> the ACLU. Even Tom Daschle and Richard Gephardt who will fight to the death
> to keep prayer out of schools were cheerleaders for God. Tells you something
> doesnt it. They didnt pray to the trial lawyers. They didnt pray to Barabara
> Streisand. They didnt even pray to the Government.
>
> For those of you die hards who still think Bush is crazy and a missle defense
> shield is bunko I want you to just imagine how you will feel if someday a
> single missle we know will hit LA in 30 minutes is on its way and we must sit
> helplessly and watch. Just imagine that what it would be like if what hit the
> world trade center yesterday had a warhead. Because the intelligence agencies
> were deemed "too expensive with children going hungry" by Clinton we didnt
> know. But what if we did. Everyone is calling what happened yesterday
> "unimaginable". To me not doing everything possible to make sure it doesnt
> happen again is. Is that idea to be deemed "creepy".
>
> If Shea, Azeem, and Colin comment on this post you will know they violate all
> the rules they and others have attacked me for not respecting. I have
> categorically demanded that they delete my posts. Time for certain people to
> live with the rules they make or be exposed as hypocrites. Marcel deste
