I certainly understand your complaints, having just deployed a site at IBM
using JSP. It's certainly not as easy to write or debug JSP code as it is
Java or C++ code for instance. However, in the early days of both Java and
C++ no integrated tool was available, and yet programmers realized the
power of these languages, and because they grew in popularity, integrated
environments naturally followed. To say that "JSP is not useable until
some integrated tool appears" is, in my mind, extreme. IDEs are simply
convenient ways of using a language, they are not the language itself.
Furthermore, those of us that used the languages before the IDEs were all
powerful have a much better understanding of how to debug and use the IDEs
efficiently. I would suggest that knowing the internals always improves
the code you write. Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to some
decent JSP IDEs! :-)
In response to your other concerns, the project I just finished for IBM
separated data from presentation. I think that, while noble, this
separation is not a holy Grail. However, the "the complete separation of
data from presentation" isn't easily possible, because the presentation is
always dependant on the data being displayed. The closest we were able to
achieve is having resource bundles that described the presentation. Thus,
the presentation of data will always depend on other data.
With the IBM JSP project, all the data classes where quite separate, and
the JSP was an incredibly convenient method for displaying the data. When
I worked with MFC's DOM, I quickly found that even basic separation was
incredibly messy at best. JSP (and ASP) were designed and created for the
(almost) sole purpose of embedding data in a well established presentation
layer, HTML. Combined with the power of Java Beans (which simply extend
OOP in a well defined manner) JSP is an incredibly beautiful way of
achieving data independence from presentation. ASP uses COM as JSP uses
Beans, however I find that the advantages of using Beans far outweigh the
advantages of using COM, and in my mind there is no contest between Java
and ASP's VB script.
I realize that I have presented several debatable opinions without
justifying all of them with hard core examples and reasoning. Nevertheless
I urge you to continue using JSP for its many strengths, and push the
young, struggling JSP IDEs to greatness.
Robert
Stuart Butler
<stuartjbutler@YA To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HOO.CO.UK> cc:
Sent by: A Subject: Is JSP viable in a
production environment
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about Java Server
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specification and
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<JSP-INTEREST@JAV
A.SUN.COM>
11/03/1999 07:57
AM
Please respond to
Stuart Butler
I've just started playing around with JSP (latest
JSWDK, Java Editor is Borland JBuilder3, Windows NT
4). I find the development cycle unmanageble:
- one slight syntax error and screeds of exception
output fly past the server log window. I had to
change the startup script to trap error output (can't
use the NT start command). Obviously putting code in
bean classes does minimise this problem, but it still
is an issue. Perhaps JSP is not useable until some
integrated tool appears.
- I constantly find myself examining the generated
code in the work directory to see what actually is
happening. This suggests the tool is not such a black
box as would be desired - you have to know all the
internals for each case.
- I really wonder if the presentation/data dichotomy
actually exists. Does data have any meaning other
than in its presentation? How many commercially
running websites have actually managed to separate
data from presentation? Is it a false holy grail to
to chase the complete separation of data from
presentation. And if so what reason JSP?
If you've successfully implemented a project with JSP
what do you have to say to these concerns.
Thanks
PS - I spent hours just trying to throw and Exception
( <% throw new Exception( "Test error page" ); %>
only for it never to compile successfully and
suggesting I should use an error page - very annoying
'cos my error pages works fine when accessing a null
object for instance. What's wrong here?
=====
Stuart Butler
Entier Ltd
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