-----Mensaje original----- De: Thomas Friese Enviado el: miércoles 27 de mayo de 1998 9:18 Para: '[email protected]' Asunto: The Catacombs, the Forests, Knowledge and Being. > Auf die Rueckkehr titanischen Wessens in die Gestalt > des Arbeiters verweist der Zustrom plutonischer > Energie, die voresrtst eher gefuerchtet, ja negiert > wird als bherrscht. Das wird erst moeglich, wenn > sie sich personifiziert. > So, was heißt plutonische Energie? It's a little obscure... Dear John and Jungerites: Thanks for bringing up the plutonic energy question - you have accidentally given me the solution of a old mystery. I explain: your reference reminded me of a related passage in Eumeswil that has until now always struck me oddly - I could not understand whether this was because I misunderstood Junger's terms and categories or because there was an error in the translation (where it's underlined) (Following on from a discussion of evolution, experiments and nature as an experiment:) "As little can be expected from evolution as from any progress. The great change transcends not only the species but the entire bios. It is a crucial loss that mere fragments have come down to us from the most ancient documents. The difference between the forests and the catacombs seems to be that in the former one experiments at the Tree of Knowledge and in the later at the Tree of Life (I thought it would have been the reverse) Attila is familiar with the forests; he has lived there for a long time as at many outer limits. That is why I listen very attentively to his words and even more to his silences. Likewise, more is happening in the catacombs than the hoarding and administering of knowledge. It is the foundations of the species and not of consciousness that are being shaken. In the forest, a new Isis out to be engendered, and Prometheus liberated from the Caucasus by the subterranean." Page 341 There always seemed to be a paradox in these two consecutive paragraphs - is "knowledge" in the realm of the forests or the catacombs ... one experiments at the Tree of knowledge in the forest but hoards and administers knowledge in the catacombs. The paradox is reinforced by other circumstances in Eumeswil: Bruno, who is said to be oriented towards the Catacombs, certainly experiments with the Tree of Life, as did Attila in his laboratory periods. Vigo, who is oriented towards the forests, definitely experiments with Knowledge, as does Manuel in his studies at the Luminar. Yet the Luminar itself is feed from the information hoarded by the subterranean in the catacombs. So, the forest group plays with the knowledge hoarded by the catacomb dwellers, and the catacomb group plays with Life, whose archetypal source will always be the forest. Attila in fact compares his laboratory grafting experiments to the weird hybridization that he later discovers in the post-catastrophe forest, where similar things seem to be happening naturally and with much less effort. A second passage partly explains the paradox and it relates to directly to your question by classifying the catacombs and their discoveries as plutonic. " Bruno is reticent with his allusions, but I suspect that he has lived in hollows made by plutonian and human efforts. They contain extensive gardens with a flora more splendid than that of the upper world. The constant warmth and the strange rays of light produce wonders. Botanists have released previously unknown forces of nature. I asked Bruno, "Doesn't that seem odd, since the biologists are on the side of the forests?" "Now you know that when Proserpine was picking flowers on a meadow, she was abducted by Pluto and carried off to the underworld." Of course; his answer pointed to times when luminaries of science fell into enemy hands, because of either cunning or force, and were ' turned around.' " Roberto Calvo: Beatiful Thomas. That reminds me the marvelous Persefone_proserpine- Myhte. She was abducted by Pluto and carried off to the underworld. Then, her mother Demeter goes in her search. She goes to Eleusis: and that take us to the keys: drugs- wow! all is interlaced!. In Eleusis she was at first refused-"Dieu se retire", but after some maledictions people found the Mysterys- gods came again.Then she request to Zeus to take part for she. And Zeus and Pluto get an agree. Persefone keep living with Pluto in the underworld but came back every spring. Conclusion [Thomas Friese] Roberto, I know the myth about the spring being a return of Persephone to her mother in the world of nature, but what of Junger's analogy - it is now not a cycle of one year in which she disappears and returns but a much longer one. Where are we in this cycle - in midwinter, or is the sap already awakening in the limbs, the roots warming up and beginning to feel themselves again, the first buds perhaps starting to emerge from the cool, concealing bark. But what is powerful about this myth is the fact that sooner or later Life always returns. (We might add, as do the gods....) [Roberto Calvo Macias] Thats also my vision, and my hope. About this I recomend you "Searching Persefone", and "Road to Eleusis", by RGordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck, Jonathan Ott and Robert Graves. Page 361. [Thomas Friese] I've heard about the Eleusis - drug hypothesis but I am not convinced intuitively that there must have been drugs present. Have you read Junger's "Annaeherung" - I particularly remember the chapter which referred to Beaudelaire's artificial paradises. Modern man may need drugs to artificially reach these planes of experience but that doesn't mean the ancients also required such help. We should not judge past psycho-spiritual conditions by today's reality. Eliade makes the same point about modern shamanic use of drugs - modern shamans apparently believe that their ancestors were more powerful and did not require drugs. So for Eliade spiritual drug use is a degenerate condition. [Roberto Calvo Macias] I must differ here. I´m not agree with Mr. Eliade - thought i like his works-,in this aspect. Modern shamans use drugs, and also did antique ones, as investigations have demostrated. Its also clearly that greeks take psycotropic drugs in common life, its documented judicial cases about ilegal inebriations. Certainly, its not sure its use in Eleusis, but why not?. Mr Eliade seems to have a prejudice against drugs. Drugs are mostly obtained from plants, and EJ himself has said we are very close to plants, to nature. Then, why is this a degenerate condition?. Its truth that experimented shamans low its use within time- they get capable to manipulate their own minds, as we can segregate adrenaline in a danger situation-, but drugs seems to be a powerful tool to learn. Ancient shamans- in South and North America, India, Siberia, etc had taken drugs- as arqueology rests demostrate- by milennias. Why a degenerate condition?. I have not read EJ Annaeherung cause I think there is no spanish edition, and at this moment I read german with a lot of difficulty, so I am sorry we can not discuss over his work. But he is - i had let the errata- a personal friend of A. Hofmann and I think he problably was agree with this idea. Does he put something of this in Annaeherung?. Best wishes roberto
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