Hi, It seems the original point James was making is getting missed. No one is arguing over the value of being able to retry and/or idempotent hooks. Yes, you should be able to retry them and yes nothing should break if you run them over and over.
The point made is that Juju shouldn't be automatically retrying them. The argument of "no one knows what went wrong so Juju automatically retrying them is a better experience" doesn't work. The intelligence of the stack in question, regardless of what it is, goes in the charms. If you start conflating and mixing up where the intelligence goes then creating, running, and debugging those distributed systems will be a nightmare. The magic should only be in Juju's ability to effectively drive the models and intelligence encoded in the charms. It shouldn't make assumptions about what that intelligence is or what those models require. Thanks. -Dean
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