Hey folks :) Attached is the log of today's office hour. Thanks everyone for coming. If anyone else has questions related to the goals or needs help refining one please let me know.
Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher KDE e.V. Board of Directors http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org
19:00 <Nightrose> Hey everyone :) 19:00 <Nightrose> Who's here for the goals office hour? 19:00 <d_ed> hello 19:00 <d_ed> I am here 19:00 <skadinna> hi! I'm here :) 19:00 <CarlSchwan[m]> I'm here :) 19:00 <ivan|home> Present, almost an hour early by mistake :D 19:01 <skadinna> apologies if my messages are delayed, I seem to have some sort of a lag 19:01 <Nightrose> yay :) that's already more people than i expected 19:01 <Nightrose> \o/ 19:02 <Nightrose> So I wanted to take this time to answer and general questions about the goals and also talk through specific questions you have for any particular goal or provide tips for shaping them. 19:02 <ngraham> I'm here too 19:02 <Nightrose> Let's start with collecting topics you want to cover? 19:03 <d_ed> I don't have anything in particular 19:03 <Nightrose> ok 19:03 <Nightrose> skadinna: you wanted to talk about the documentation goal? 19:03 <Nightrose> what else? 19:03 <skadinna> In more general terms, I'd be interested to learn how success of the goals is evaluated/measured. And more specifically, I'd like to get some advice on what to do with my proposal, because I'm debating whether I should drop it. 19:04 <d_ed> I have my "enterprise goal" if people have comments on that 19:04 <Nightrose> *nod* 19:04 <Nightrose> link to all goals for those who need it: https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/306/ 19:04 <neofytosk[m]> skadinna: can you elaborate on what makes you consider dropping your proposal, it looks like a very solid goal! 19:04 <ivan|home> There are several privacy proposals that could be merged with the old one :) 19:05 <ivan|home> skadinna: neofytosk[m]: hear hear! 19:05 <Nightrose> ivan|home: yeah there are two. I asked them to not merge them with last year's ticket because it became very messy 19:05 <Nightrose> I also left a comment in one of them to figure out if the two new ones should be merged or if they can be made more distinct 19:05 <neofytosk[m]> ivan|home: my understanding is that we can re-boost old goals if they are voted again, and yes it makes sense to have a common proposal for all if they do overlap 19:06 ⇐ michaelweghorn quit (~michaelwe@2001:a61:25ce:601:9738:fcb8:1bd3:7d73) Quit: Konversation terminated! 19:06 <neofytosk[m]> Nightrose: but they could be merged between them 19:06 <Nightrose> yeah privacy or something related can definitely go in again 19:06 <Nightrose> yeah 19:06 <neofytosk[m]> neat, that makes sense 19:06 <bshah|matrix> https://phabricator.kde.org/T11146 one of them is mine. 19:06 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: hey :) 19:06 ⇐ notmart_ quit (~diau@kde/mart) Quit: notmart terminated! 19:07 <Nightrose> alright let's start with skadinna's specific questions 19:07 <skadinna> neofytosk[m]: sure! :) My original idea was this: reduce complexity to improve discoverability. Meaning, people can't read the docs or contribute to them if they can't find them. And they can't find them because they're split up into different locations, which introduces complexity. But then as I started receiving feedback on it, I realized that this centralization might not be possible or even desirable for a number of reasons 19:07 <skadinna> People seem to like the wikis even though they have some serious technical disadvantages. So moving things away from the wikis is out of the question 19:07 <bshah|matrix> I'm ultimately not sure if I should just merge it, or not? IMO topic of my goal is quite large, and distinct, that's why I had submitted another goal. 19:08 <Nightrose> I think you have identified a good problem (our documentation is hard to find) 19:08 <skadinna> Plus, there are probably good reasons for why some things are split up from the rest 19:08 <Nightrose> But there are many ways of fixing it 19:08 <Nightrose> And the goals usually shouldn't prescribe a solution 19:08 <Nightrose> centralizing documentation is just one way of solving the discoverability problem 19:08 <lamefun> "wikis [...] have some serious technical disadvantages" - which disadvantages? 19:08 <skadinna> Yeah, it's totally possible that I misunderstood what the goals are about :/ 19:09 → ehustad joined (~ehus...@ti0063a400-1016.bb.online.no) 19:09 <Nightrose> The beauty is that as part of the current step we don't need the solution. 19:09 <Nightrose> We need to describe the change we want to see in the world. 19:09 <skadinna> lamefun: version history is clunky at best. search is not very intuitive, at least not for beginners/newcomers 19:09 <ivan|home> "And the goals usually shouldn't prescribe a solution" - I like it when they do - not as a 'written in stone' type of thing, but to give ideas to people joining the goal 19:09 <neofytosk[m]> skadinna: maybe the problem you identified is on the right path but through discussion you can consider different solutions. but as Nightrose mentioned, don't overthink the solution atm. 19:09 <Nightrose> And then we have time to discuss the proper solution later 19:10 <ngraham> either way, let's not get too caught up in implementation details right now 19:10 → michaelweghorn joined (~michaelwe@2001:a61:25ce:601:9738:fcb8:1bd3:7d73) 19:10 <Nightrose> ivan|home: it is fine in the text to propose one way of going about it of course. but a few are focusing too much on the solution 19:10 <skadinna> I thought it was expected to provide at least one solution in the proposal, otherwise it would just seem as a lofty idea 19:10 <Nightrose> skadinna: it certainly can be mentioned sure 19:11 <Nightrose> And if the goal is voted in then you have the whole community behind you to figure out the best way forward towards achieving the goal 19:12 <Nightrose> including a sprint and so on to help come to conclusions in-person if needed 19:12 <skadinna> There's another problem, though. I'm not sure how much time I'll be able to dedicate to this goal...I always do this to myself, I get all enthusiastic about something and start working on it but then I'm unable to commit to it fully because I just have too many oher things :/ I would hate for this goal to be selected and then it turns out I'm too busy to actually work on it 19:12 <skadinna> *other things 19:12 <Nightrose> *nod* 19:13 <Nightrose> In the last round we relied pretty heavily on the goal proposers. I'd like to find ways to make this a bit less so. But certainly the person proposing it should be willing to spend some time on it. 19:13 <Nightrose> We should brainstorm ideas around that later. 19:13 <skadinna> of course, that makes sense 19:14 ⇐ lamefun quit (~quassel@94.181.159.231) Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere. 19:15 <Nightrose> Do you want specific help with reformulating? 19:16 <skadinna> I think just a few general pointers should be enough...like, in which direction should I go? Or if there's a particular point you think I should focus on, what would that be? 19:16 <skadinna> And thank you :) 19:16 <Nightrose> Let me look at the text again 19:17 <skadinna> So I get that I shouldn't try to prescribe solutions right away, it should be more of a definition of the problem that is now open to different potential solutions? 19:17 <ngraham> in my experience (small sample size, of course) the goal proposes becomes seen as the leader of the goal and is expected to coordinate and put in some work 19:17 <Nightrose> Right. 19:17 <Nightrose> Ok so let's try to define the problem. 19:18 <Nightrose> Our users and developers have a hard time finding documentation? They don't know what documentation is where? 19:18 <Nightrose> The documentation is not good? 19:18 <neofytosk[m]> skadinna: try to think of it more as describing possible ways to approach the issue/goal than definite solutions 19:18 <Nightrose> As in wrong etc 19:18 <Nightrose> or something else? 19:19 ⇐ notmart quit (~diau@kde/mart) Quit: notmart terminated! 19:19 <ngraham> Nightrose: all of the above, really 19:19 <skadinna> From what I've seen, it depends on the project. Some are incomplete or outdated. I wouldn't say they're necessarily wrong. Just that they need some love 19:19 <Nightrose> :P 19:19 <ngraham> documentation hard to find, duplicated, out of date, not high quality, etc 19:19 <skadinna> But the main problem would be this lack of discoverability 19:19 <Nightrose> Ok 19:19 <vkrause> yep, docs.kde.org + 3 wikis 19:19 <skadinna> Like, some things are on userbase, some on techbase, people don't really know where to look for what 19:20 <Nightrose> So then let's look at it from the other angle: once the goal is "done" how is the world better? 19:20 <skadinna> And then they immediately react with "the docs suck!" even though they haven't even got to them 19:20 <DavidRedondo> Also api.kde.org for api docs 19:20 <Nightrose> *nod* 19:20 <skadinna> well, that's the trick. I asked how you measure/evaluate success or completion of a goal 19:20 <skadinna> because I don't see this goal ever being truly "done" :D 19:21 <CarlSchwan[m]> David Redondo: Api.kde.org has some tutorials too 19:21 <Nightrose> What I'm reading so far the answer is something like "our documentation is easily discoverable, complete, correct and helpful" 19:21 <Nightrose> does that match? 19:21 <skadinna> but yeah, the world is better if - this is just my vision - we have a modern, easy-to-use way to at least FIND the documentation 19:21 <DavidRedondo> I would also is in the right place 19:21 <skadinna> content improvements can come later 19:21 <DavidRedondo> *add everything 19:21 <skadinna> because that's a whole nother can of worms 19:22 <Nightrose> *nod* 19:22 <Nightrose> ok 19:22 <DavidRedondo> Like Carl said tutorials are currently in api.kde.org and also on the wikis 19:22 <Nightrose> So then "our documentation is easily discoverable"? 19:23 → tsdgeos joined (~tsdgeos@kde/aacid) 19:23 <vkrause> right, content needs continuous work, so the structure and infrastructure part is better suited for a goal project IMHO 19:23 <skadinna> that would be step 1, yeah. that's like a prerequisite for all other improvements, IMHO. when people can find what they need, find their way around the docs, they'll be able to contribute to improve the content 19:23 <Nightrose> ok 19:23 <yurchor> For ~15 years in KDE, I have tried to be translator, documentation writer and developer. An I can always find the documentation needed with google... 19:23 <skadinna> we're just hitting each other with IMHOs vkrause:D 19:23 <Nightrose> then I guess it is just a question of how big we want to make the goal 19:24 <Nightrose> yurchor: hehe 19:24 <CarlSchwan[m]> yurchor: hi :) 19:24 <skadinna> yurchor: ok, that's a valid point. but not everyone is like you. there are people who heard about Plasma or KDE yesterday 19:24 <skadinna> we want to be able to help them, too 19:25 <Nightrose> skadinna: i think yurchor was agreeing with you actually. it's not a good state 19:25 <ngraham> FWIW I also have an easier time finding KDE API docs using a web search 19:25 <skadinna> well I mean, you can always tell people to just google it, it's true 19:25 <yurchor> skadinna: If they do not want to collaborate, there will be no results. That's what I always tell to me students... 19:25 <vkrause> google might find it for you, but it's hard to see for new people what is still relevant in the google results 19:25 <tsdgeos> there's people that reported a security bug to bugs.kde.org 19:25 → orivej joined (~orivej@185.189.113.83) 19:26 <tsdgeos> because they didn't bother to search "security kde" 19:26 <skadinna> oh 19:26 <tsdgeos> there's not much we can do for people that don't search 19:26 <Nightrose> alright - let's focus on improving this goal proposal :D 19:26 <tsdgeos> sorry 19:26 — tsdgeos -> cave 19:26 <Nightrose> hehe all good 19:26 <skadinna> or just tell me if it can't be improved :) I won't cry 19:26 <skadinna> I promise 19:26 <Nightrose> no it totally can 19:27 <Nightrose> so we now have the state we want to reach (easily discoverable documentation for developers and users) 19:27 <Nightrose> I would look at the whole text again and especially the title with this in mind 19:27 <skadinna> yes 19:28 — neofytosk[m] already thinking how this is definitely also helping in onboarding, just left a comment on embedding Google Season of docs in the proposal. 19:28 <Nightrose> there are a number of ways this can be achieved 19:28 <Nightrose> * centralisation in one or two places 19:28 <Nightrose> * hiring a doc writer to clean up the places we have 19:28 <Nightrose> * build a search engine to search all the things 19:28 <Nightrose> * probably a ton I'm missing 19:29 <vkrause> * actually fix api docs generation which has been stuck since mid April 19:29 <Nightrose> :P 19:29 <skadinna> yes, those are pretty much all I could think of on the spot. with collaborative brainstorming we could come up with more 19:29 <Nightrose> skadinna: does that help you? 19:30 <Nightrose> yeah and you don't have to come up with all of them yourself or now 19:30 <Nightrose> that can be done later 19:30 <bshah|matrix> vkrause: I thought I fixed it? O.o 19:30 <bshah|matrix> I'll check tomorrow 19:31 <vkrause> bshah|matrix: still shows Apr 18 everywhere, and I don'T see any content updates 19:31 <Nightrose> Ok then let's look at your other question, skadinna. how is success measured? 19:31 ⇐ skadinna quit (~k...@141-138-41-247.dsl.iskon.hr) Read error: No route to host 19:32 <Nightrose> ohnoes we lost her :( 19:32 → skadinna joined (~k...@141-138-41-247.dsl.iskon.hr) 19:32 <Nightrose> ah back 19:32 <skadinna> huh, sorry, my connection dropped 19:32 <Nightrose> no problem 19:33 <Nightrose> I was going to your next question about measuring success 19:33 <skadinna> I was going to say - yes, this is great feedback! thank you for putting so much faith in my goal :) 19:33 <Nightrose> It depends on the goal how we measure the success of that individual goal 19:33 <Nightrose> but there is also a more global success behind the goals 19:33 <skadinna> just one more question: is it better if I rewrite the whole proposal, or should I leave the original text and add a new, improved one as a comment? 19:34 <Nightrose> We started the whole process to give the KDE community shared goals that we can rally behind together. This is important to have a shared direction in such a big and sometimes fragmented community. 19:35 <Nightrose> And to make it clearer to the outside world and newcomers what the community stands for and cares about at the moment. 19:35 <Nightrose> So success there is measured in how much community cohesion it can give us and how clear a story it allows us to tell the outside world. 19:36 <Nightrose> For the individual goals it is very much open for discussion and shaping by the proposer how they think they should measure success for their goal 19:36 <Nightrose> As for changing the proposal: just adapt the main description text so we have one source of truth what the proposal is and what people will vote on. 19:36 <neofytosk[m]1> skadinna: I would edit the proposal so everyone coming sees the latest updated version 19:37 → stikonas joined (~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas) 19:37 <skadinna> Right, that makes sense. I've gotten used to "businessy" terms like KPIs and OKRs the managers keep throwing around at my workplace, so I thought something like that was expected here as well 19:37 <Nightrose> You're welcome to bring them on but not neecessary :P 19:38 <skadinna> OK, thank you so much for all your help <3 I'll get down to rewriting the proposal based on your input 19:38 <skadinna> and then we'll see what happens, I guess :) 19:38 <Nightrose> Perfect :) 19:39 <Nightrose> If you need more help or have questions please reach out. I'm sure ngraham neofytosk[m] and ivan|home are also happy to help 19:39 <Nightrose> Ok what else did we have? 19:39 <neofytosk[m]1> yup 19:40 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: do we want to talk a bit about the two privacy related proposals? 19:40 <Nightrose> I fear in the current state the votes could be split between them and give each less votes than they deserve. 19:40 <bshah|matrix> Sure. 19:40 <Nightrose> So it'd be good to make it clear how they differ 19:41 <bshah|matrix> Yes, if people think my goal is ultimately too close to the privacy goal, I'm happy to merge 19:41 <neofytosk[m]1> I think there are a couple for accessibility that could be merged in the same spirit 19:41 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: I am not sure yet if they should be merged. Maybe maybe not 19:42 <Nightrose> Can you maybe talk a bit about your thoughts for your goal? 19:42 <Nightrose> neofytosk[m]: let's have a look at those too then next 19:42 <vkrause> when not merging, it might make sense to emphasis the consumer device focus in there more maybe, rather than privacy? 19:44 <bshah|matrix> vkrause: probably 19:44 <bshah|matrix> just as a note, the goal was basically inspired by both a) privacy goal and b) my work in PlaMo world 19:44 <Nightrose> that makes sense 19:44 → kbroulik joined (~quassel@kde/broulik) 19:45 <Nightrose> So your focus is on enabling creation of privacy-conscious consumer devices? 19:45 <Nightrose> specifically mobile? 19:45 <Nightrose> or general? 19:46 <bshah|matrix> Basic idea is, instead of corporations/startups etc making their own home-grown solution for various consumer devices, they use kde software, which have privacy in mind 19:46 <Nightrose> *nod* 19:46 <bshah|matrix> Sorry typiong on mobile so bit slow 19:47 <Nightrose> I think that is a good focus in general 19:47 <bshah|matrix> Nightrose: not just mobile, but everything smart* or IoTish basically which deals with user data ultimately 19:47 <Nightrose> Then maybe we need to clarify how the other one differs 19:47 <Nightrose> ok 19:47 ⇐ orivej quit (~orivej@185.189.113.83) Ping timeout: 268 seconds 19:48 <bshah|matrix> Although I agree that my proposal is not worded properly maybe and there's room for improvement.. ideas welcome 19:48 <Nightrose> Looking over it quickly I guess merging the other one into yours and keeping your focus might be an option? 19:49 <ivan|home> The question is how and why consumer devices should be separated from, let's say, normal computers in this goal? If you have an answer to this, I fully support updating your goal as a separate one, otherwise, merging the two seems like a better idea. 19:49 <ivan|home> From my POV (since I'm not in your head :) ), privacy on devices is a subset of privacy. 19:49 <Nightrose> yeah 19:50 <Nightrose> and it might make sense to focus on the subset? 19:50 <Nightrose> not sure 19:50 <ivan|home> And people working on a goal can focus on the subset they want to work without the goal being focused 19:50 <bshah|matrix> ivan|home: IMO main reason this needs separate goal is, working on such devices is something we haven't done yet. It's totally new landscape for us potentially. 19:50 <bshah|matrix> (we == KDE community) 19:51 <ivan|home> Nightrose: maybe we can realize that the privacy goal is huge and that it will never end - and then have periods where we have focused-goals inside 19:51 <bshah|matrix> So we largely need outreach for this goal initially. 19:51 <vkrause> privacy isn't the distinguising factor, right, that's why I suggested to focus on consumer devices (enough work for its own goal), and leave privacy to another goal 19:51 <ivan|home> bshah|matrix: that I like 19:51 <Nightrose> ivan|home: yeah i think that would make sense 19:51 <vkrause> it's one selling point for our platform, but not necessarily the thing we have to focus on first (and we have a decent level compared to the alternative already) 19:52 <Nightrose> vkrause: you don't think that's our distinguishing factor? (or should be) 19:52 <Nightrose> Or? 19:52 <vkrause> it's not a distinguishing factor to non-consumer device work we do, ie. we want privacy independent of the target hardware 19:52 <bshah|matrix> vkrause: I can potentially re-write whole goal to be focused on "selling" our platform/framworks/plasma for consumer devices 19:52 <Nightrose> ahhhh yes! 19:53 <vkrause> but consumer devices is quite different from other things we do, so that makes the much clearer goal IMHO 19:53 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: could be an option, yeah. and then leave the privacy part to the other one 19:53 <Nightrose> *nod* 19:54 <ivan|home> Then bshah's proposal could swallow up the touchscreen and wayland ones :) 19:55 <Nightrose> good point 19:55 <bshah|matrix> nom nom 19:55 <bshah|matrix> 😜 19:55 <Nightrose> they are a bit thorny atm anyway because they are very solution/technology focused 19:55 <neofytosk[m]1> if we continue merging we will end up with 3 proposals before the voting =P 19:55 <Nightrose> at least the wayland one 19:55 <Nightrose> neofytosk[m]: lol 19:56 <Nightrose> neofytosk[m]: so far we haven't merged any today :P 19:56 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: do you want to talk it through more or sleep on it? 19:56 <ivan|home> neofytosk[m]1: wouldn't that be grand - and all of them would be accepted then 19:57 ↔ barchiesi nipped out 19:58 <bshah|matrix> About two goals, I think touchscreen goal makes sense as separate one. 19:59 <Nightrose> Does anyone have an idea for making this a bit more appealing? I mean touchscreen support is great but it is a bit dry and as good as the previous goals when it comes to telling stories around them. 19:59 <Nightrose> The touchscreen and wayland ones 20:00 <neofytosk[m]1> how about a theme around utilizing modern technology? 20:00 <Nightrose> that could work 20:01 ⇐ kbroulik quit (~quassel@kde/broulik) Ping timeout: 245 seconds 20:01 <DavidRedondo> Perfect controllability on all devices or something like that? re touchscreen 20:01 <Nightrose> yeah that also sounds better 20:01 <bshah|matrix> I think touchscreen goal is ultimately tech-centric. But that's not necessarily bad. 20:01 <skadinna> Future-Proof Plasma or something like that 20:01 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: right. but we need to be able to tell a story and make it appealing 20:02 <ngraham> Nightrose: It already seems appealing abough IMO; just look at the list of people who want to help make it happen 20:02 <Nightrose> hehe fair enough 20:02 <ngraham> I think having this one be tech-centric makes sense 20:02 <vkrause> I think the touchscreen one will be appealing to those having such a device, without much story-telling even, but not much for everyone else. the wayland one is harder to "sell" I think 20:02 <Nightrose> yeah wayland is even harder 20:03 <Nightrose> ok so why do we care about wayland? 20:03 <Nightrose> how does it make everyone's life better? 20:03 <neofytosk[m]1> it's the futureTM 20:03 <Nightrose> haha 20:03 <vkrause> it's basically "your life wont be worse than with X" atm 20:04 <Nightrose> :P 20:04 <Nightrose> So far i'm not sold, sorry ;-) 20:05 <Nightrose> (mind you I'm not saying it doesn't make sense and we shouldn't have it) 20:05 <ivan|home> vkrause: +1 20:05 <Nightrose> maybe future-proofing our tech is the closest indeed 20:06 <bshah|matrix> So point about both touch and wayland goal is, Plasma team have this as their main goal already from forever. This goal is about, can community help it do faster and Better? 20:07 <bshah|matrix> We can word both goals around that basically I think 20:07 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: ok. why do you have it for years? 20:07 <skadinna> all I can think of right now are terrible marketing blobs like "Next-Gen Readiness" 20:07 <Nightrose> :D 20:08 <ivan|home> bshah|matrix: and how do you expect KDE Goal TM to bring in more people than just Plasma team annoys everyone with Wayland on planetKDE? :) 20:08 <Nightrose> lol 20:08 <Nightrose> well it's fair to say that the goals should help get other and new people in for working on a topic 20:09 <vkrause> and it's not just affecting plasma, some applications also need to do some work for this 20:09 <Nightrose> vkrause: like making UIs more touch-friendly? 20:10 <vkrause> that too, I was thinking about wayland support though 20:10 <Nightrose> k 20:10 <skadinna> maaaybe we can present it like an inclusivity story? like hey, we're providing support for all these different shapes and sizes of devices/screens 20:11 <Nightrose> could work. might make it too broad. not sure 20:11 ⇐ stikonas quit (~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas) Quit: Konversation terminated! 20:11 <skadinna> yeah it sounded better in my head 20:11 — ivan|home in merging mood: 20:11 <vkrause> might work better on bshah's device goal than the touch one 20:11 → stikonas_ joined (~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas) 20:11 <Nightrose> :D we're here to look at all the things 20:11 <ivan|home> then we can merge accessibility into it :) 20:12 <Nightrose> haha 20:12 → renn0xtk9 joined (~max@2a02:810d:1540:6ba6:882f:da7a:a131:17d4) 20:12 <ivan|home> AND language inputs 20:12 <Nightrose> We need to also be a bit careful to not merge to the point where it is too broad and doesn't help us :D 20:12 <Nightrose> how about "let's make everything better" :P 20:13 <neofytosk[m]1> I would vote for that =D 20:13 <ivan|home> :) 20:13 <Nightrose> =D 20:13 <bshah|matrix> Nightrose: and unicorns! 20:13 <bshah|matrix> And rainbows 20:13 <Nightrose> bshah|matrix: they make everything better so that's a done deal 20:14 <Nightrose> aaaaaanyway - let's get back to the wayland one for a sec 20:14 <Nightrose> I am still not clear on what the reasons are for it. Is it just future-proofing and moving with the newest tech? 20:14 <vkrause> ivan|home: they all touch the same technology (input handling), but wondering if the result still would be a convincing story 20:14 <Nightrose> Or is there more? 20:16 <vkrause> we need it because the linux world is moving to wayland, we could of course then also iterate the reasons why wayland is superior (like actually having a security model) 20:16 <Nightrose> I think that'd be useful 20:17 ⇐ Venemo quit (~venemo@fedora/Venemo) Ping timeout: 245 seconds 20:18 <skadinna> just asking and not intending to derail the conversation - in general, is it acceptable (to you) to have a standalone goal that's so tech-specific? it's a bit like if my goal was "implement algolia for documentation", no? 20:19 <neofytosk[m]1> in my mind moving to wayland seems like a too narrow of a goal that only some part of our community can contribute to. Merging it with another goal under a more broad umbrella would help to get more people feel they can contribute to it. 20:19 <skadinna> I'm getting the same impression neofytosk[m]1 20:20 <ivan|home> +1 20:20 <neofytosk[m]1> yeah I was half way into typing this when I saw your message =) 20:20 <Nightrose> From what i'm hearing so far it could go under a "better tech/future-proofing our tech" or "privacy/security" umbrella 20:20 <vkrause> I don't think it's the best goal we have (in terms of goaliness), and it's something we will be forced to do anyway, not something we ultimately chose as direction 20:21 <Nightrose> <3 goaliness 20:21 <Nightrose> ;-) 20:22 <Nightrose> alright let's sleep on it a bit more and then make some suggestions on the ticket 20:22 <Nightrose> Any other topics we should look at? 20:23 <skadinna> I think it's worth asking again in the promo channel for some help regarding the "catchiness" of goal proposals and titles. I don't think people ignored you Nightrose, it's just that you happened to ask at a time when there weren't many people active in the channel. So I can bump the question for you 20:24 <Nightrose> that'd be lovely 20:24 <SGOrava> Stupid question; When will begin massive migration to GitLab ? 20:25 einar77_work → einar77 20:25 <Nightrose> SGOrava: hope bshah|matrix and neofytosk[m] can give you some insights after the office hour 20:25 <Nightrose> If there are no other topics to cover for the goals I think we can wrap it up? 20:26 → smithjd joined (~end...@node-1w7jra24sjglsna0eluvgpdph.ipv6.telus.net) 20:26 <neofytosk[m]1> how about the accessibility proposals 20:27 <Nightrose> ah yes 20:27 <Nightrose> neofytosk[m]: which ones do you cound under that atm? 20:27 <Nightrose> There is one explicit accessibility goal 20:27 <neofytosk[m]1> 11054 and 11074 seem related 20:28 <Nightrose> I think i would keep those separate 20:28 <Nightrose> One is about making it more accessible for people from different writing systems etc 20:29 <Nightrose> the other one for people with physical impairments of some kind 20:29 <Nightrose> those seem pretty different to me 20:29 → fbg13 joined (~george@86.120.139.57) 20:29 <vkrause> yep, overlapping technologies, but very different story/use-case 20:29 <Nightrose> that's at least how i read them 20:29 <neofytosk[m]1> sure, I don't have a strong opinion on it, just thought to mention it to see what others think 20:29 <Nightrose> *nod* 20:30 <Nightrose> Other thoughts? 20:30 ⇐ michaelweghorn quit (~michaelwe@2001:a61:25ce:601:9738:fcb8:1bd3:7d73) Quit: Konversation terminated! 20:31 <Nightrose> If not I think we can call it done for today? 20:32 <Nightrose> If no-one objects I'd like to send a log to the community list. 20:32 <Nightrose> Thanks everyone for coming. This was productive :) 20:33 <Nightrose> Let's see how we can adjust the goals in the next days. 20:33 <skadinna> I think I don't have any more comments or questions. Just wanna thank you all for our advice, you helped me so much 20:33 <neofytosk[m]1> +1 20:33 <Nightrose> <3
