Simon, Are you saying we should host the models and provide them on demand?
I would agree. This way we can provide models independent of the source (scripts, etc). It also makes it way easier for users. I like the idea of a KiCad-integrated model wizard but I'll leave that for Cirilo to code when he has a free weekend. I'll let all this percolate. Thanks for the input. On 25 Feb 2017 1:41 PM, "Simon Wells" <[email protected]> wrote: > i don't see why on-install and if it can be done at install time why > not just do it on-demand of the model... if its slow cache but still > ondemand, > > providing models that we gen will likely require a full stack of > development as git/github isn't really ideal for stuff like this > > On 25 February 2017 at 15:15, Oliver Walters > <[email protected]> wrote: > > I personally find the idea of on-demand model creation appealing. > > > > I think that if we are to "promote" this as the preferred method, it > should > > be improved through simplification and consolidation. > > > > Scripted models have only been added in the last week. Most of the models > > are legacy (poor quality wrl made in wings etc). There are also now a > lot of > > models that have been generated via the spreadsheet functionality in > > Freecad. > > > > So already there are two competing scripting methods. What I want to > achieve > > is a simplified and unified library structure. > > > > I realise that due to file size this is not so practical for the 3D > models. > > > > Perhaps a good idea is to dictate a scripting architecture that allows > us to > > be somewhat forward-compatible, and not actually provide 3D models. > > > > The current scripts could be made more generic and "publish" their > > parameters in such a way that an external tool can have some > introspection > > of the scripts. Much like the python footprint wizards currently work in > > KiCad. > > > > Then, a "helper" script can parse the generator scripts, and the user can > > select which models to generate. This could even be run on KiCad install. > > > > e.g. a list of checkboxes to install "all JST connectors" or "R0603". > > > > Alternatively, we host all the generated models, and provide a download > tool > > which downloads models as required. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > On 25 Feb 2017 10:48 AM, "Cirilo Bernardo" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Hi Oliver, > > > > The scripts will easily generate many GB of data in time and for me it's > > not > > reasonable to download that amount of data. I think new users should > simply > > learn to read documentation and generate the models rather than > downloading > > them. Package maintainers can automatically run the scripts. Users will > > still > > have access to all the old VRML models and if they want to use the newer > > models, especially the STEP+VRML models, they should learn to set up the > > required tools. As I said, this requires a lot more thought. > > > > I suspect we can indeed develop our own parametric 3D modeling tools for > > KiCad based on OCE and provide a scheme to specify good material > > appearances for the VRML export as Maurice's tools do, but it's really a > > question of time and planning. Having scripts available in the official > > repo > > I think is a good start and will keep the expert users happy until > someone > > gets around to creating these specialised tools for kicad. > > > > - Cirilo > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Oliver Walters > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Cirilo, > >> > >> Unless we made script generation of models completely idiot proof, I > think > >> that requiring another niche toolset would only serve to increase the > >> already high barrier to entry for new users. > >> > >> The 3D scripts require, currently: > >> > >> - Freecad > >> - cadquery plugin > >> > >> Plus the scripts themselves are a bit opaque to use. > >> > >> I think that if we are going to distribute recipes for models rather > than > >> the models themselves, that should be integrated into KiCad? > >> > >> You're the expert on the 3D code, is there any possibility that we could > >> have a 3D wizard that operates in a similar way to the footprint wizard? > >> Then it would be fantastic to have the repo contain scripts as you say. > >> > >> Connectors are an obvious use for parametric scripts as it takes lots of > >> space to store each of hundreds of variants. > >> > >> Oliver > >> > >> > >> On 25 Feb 2017 8:44 AM, "Cirilo Bernardo" <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Simon Wells <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> why should packages be a subfolder of modules, it seems that they > >>> don't really belong in there and should be directly in the share/kicad > >>> folder > >>> > >> > >> That would certainly be my preference. Since the root of the 3D models > is > >> determined by KISYS3DMOD and hasn't had a hard-coded relation to the > >> *.lib files for quite a few years now, I would move it out of 'modules' > >> and > >> into > >> a 'packages3d' directory. Looking at the structure on github, > >> 'packages3d' > >> is currently the only directory within 'modules' so the modules > directory > >> seems silly. > >> > >> > >>> On 25 February 2017 at 02:00, Adam Wolf <[email protected] > > > >>> wrote: > >>>> Yeah, let me clarify--by "wouldn't be a problem" for OS X, I meant "if > >>>> you did it without saying where it's going and when it's changing", it > >>>> would break the OS X package, but the change would only take a minute > >>>> or two, and would be quickly testable. > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Wayne Stambaugh < > [email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> On 2/24/2017 3:45 AM, Oliver Walters wrote: > >>>>>> Hi everyone, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Recently I raised this issue: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg27922.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There were some good responses, thanks for the input. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> First task is going to be moving the 3D models, as this will be > >>>>>> significantly easier. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> e.g. something like GitHub.com/KiCad/packages3D > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To this end, I'd like some further information from those in the > know: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A) is there any impediment to having the KISYS3DMOD envvar point to > >>>>>> somewhere different? e.g. ./KiCad/share/packages3D/ > >>>>> > >>>>> I believe you mean share/kicad/modules/packages3d. Why would change > >>>>> the > >>>>> install path? Irregardless of what repo the 3D models are in, they > >>>>> should always get installed in this location. Where else would be > >>>>> appropriate to install them? Changing this path would most likely > >>>>> break > >>>>> everyone's 3D viewing experience. > >>>>> > >>>>>> B) To the package managers, how much effort to package 3D models > from > >>>>>> a > >>>>>> separate repo? > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll leave this to our package devs. > >>>>> > >>>>>> C) to the docs maintainers, would there be much to change if we > >>>>>> redirected the 3D repo? > >>>>>> D) Generally, what other considerations would be required? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Essentially, if I made this change right now without telling anyone, > >>>>>> what would I break? > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure all of the package builders. You would need to coordinate > >>>>> this > >>>>> change with the package devs. > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As a side note there have been some great recent contributions to > the > >>>>>> 3D > >>>>>> data, with a fair bit of momentum over at the forums. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Oliver > >> > >> Some thought is needed about how to handle the 3D model repository in > the > >> future. In the past we only had VRML which was pretty but next to > useless > >> for mechanical verification. Now we have IGES and STEP in all the > >> gloriously > >> ugly MCAD color schemes. Personally I only use IGES and STEP, but some > >> people like to have a STEP model for mechanical verification and a VRML > >> model for eyecandy. At the moment various scripts written to work with > >> Maurice's StepUp tool are the only scheme I'm aware of which make it > easy > >> for people to have a STEP file while having improved material > appearances > >> applied to the surfaces in a corresponding VRML file. I suspect it is > >> inevitable > >> that we start to have a diverse collection of 3D model sources: > >> > >> a. old VRML models with no corresponding MCAD model > >> b. IGES/STEP models from manufacturers with no aesthetic coloring > >> c. script-based parametric generators which produce STEP models and > >> corresponding VRML models with aesthetic material appearances > >> > >> For (c) it really makes no sense to store the models themselves because > >> these can really waste storage space. My preference is for the scripts > to > >> be made available for various tools (StepUp being the only one so far) > >> and for the end user to install the tools. > >> > >> - Cirilo > >> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>>>>> Post to : [email protected] > >>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>>>> Post to : [email protected] > >>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>>> Post to : [email protected] > >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>> Post to : [email protected] > >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >> Post to : [email protected] > >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >> > >> > > > > >
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