On Tuesday 07 June 2005 11:59 am, Andrew Lentvorski wrote: > boblq wrote: > > Easy Andrew. I can assure you that the corn and rice farmers in my > > family are doing a lot less damage to the global ecosystem than > > the average American. > > Yeah. And how did that land get cleared for the corn farmers? > Hopefully not by burning off the cover (the standard Southeast Asian > method). And, I presume that they rotate their crops to preserve the > soil and let the land lay fallow some years? If so, I bow before them. > They really are ecologically sensitive.
They have farming corn and rice in this area for several hundred years. No sign of it quitting. There are rice terraces in the mountains that have been there for nearly two thousand years. > I won't defend the damage done by the "Average American". However, your > idyllic world is not quite as idyllic as you think. I did not said it was idyllic. I said the people I know there are happier than the average American. I will stand by that statement. > > Good for you and good for them. I have a Ph.D. in physics but have > > learned more about life from my relatives in the Phillippines then I did > > building a spacecraft instrument that went to the moon. But you have > > to assume an open mind to learn from people. If you go in with the > > assumption that they are your inferiors then you won't learn a thing. > > I don't go in with the attitude that they are my inferiors. But I also > don't go in with the attitude that they are superior because they are > "happier". You don't have a clue do you? Ever wonder why they are happy? I found that I learned as much from them as they did from me. What I learned from them was about those values of relationship and caring directly, rather than abstractly, for real people in real situations. That people matter more than objects. That who you are is defined by your relationships with other people not by the amount of money you make, nor your job, nor the house you live in or the car you drive. Not by your intellect but by your capacity for compassion. What I found was that people living with those values were happier on the whole than my intellectual friends many of whom had exaggerated opinions of themselves based upon minor academic and intellectual accomplishments. > In addition, *you* were the one who pointed out that their happiness > stems from inward focus to the exclusion of outside influence. It stems from the community they live in and create, which is basically a small village, very poor by western standards, but relatively self sufficient, and where most people actually seem to like each other and live happy and meaningful lives. > Furthermore, no small amount of violence and evil exists because people > choose to be happy and ignorant. This country is a shining example of > that. We agree, but there is ignorance and ignorance. Not all is the same. > Finally, sheep are quite happy right before they get slaughtered. Just > because you ignore the world does not mean the world ignores you. So you don't think you are in that same boat? LOL. If you really think your education and awareness will shelter you from all of the worlds potential difficulties then you certainly have stepped outside the realm of history. Just look at what slaughters were _not_ avoided during the last century by well educated and well meaning people. > > Now it is my turn to be snide. I am glad you have such valuable friends. > > It must be wonderful to be associated with such brilliant and creative > > people who look down their long intellectual noses at those who merely > > "suck off the global teat." > > We don't look down our "long intellectual noses" at them. Most of these > people, in fact, labor out of the hope that their work benefits us all. > But, neither do they pretend that the larger world does not exist. But you take a very condescending attitude to all kinds of people who do not share your background. I wonder why? > > Not in the Philippines, chuckle. It is not my fault that your relatives > > moved to Pittsburgh (or wherever) to work in the Satanic mills. > > Yeah, they left idyllic, pastoral Hungary, braved the boat ride across > the ocean, and slaved in the mills and the mines because idyllic, > pastoral Hungary was just *so* nice. And found that idyllic "streets paved with gold" in America was really just an opportunity to " be working in a steel mill or coal mine and then drinking myself into an alcoholic haze in order to face the fact that I might be killed at my job tomorrow." So it goes. > I'm glad your relatives think differently. Perhaps 100 years of > technology bought on the backs of those who worked in the "Satanic > mills" is rather important to their opinion. Not much. I suspect that my father-in-laws great grandfather was not a lot different. Nor was his life hugely different. > > Having children who don't die does not seem to be a problem for > > my family. Nor are the wives dieing. > > Then you are blessed to have good luck and genetics. I agree. I married into a family with both. I recognized that as soon as I met them. It did not especially surprise me though. After all I had already met their daughter. > The statistics on > childbirth mortality prior to modern medicine suggest that your family > is not the norm. Probably true, the family is not the norm. My children from that family were both just chosen as MVP (he for the boys, she for the girls) on their sports teams at school. Both are also honor students. But my point is not statistical. My point is that despite the statistics there are often really beautiful situations that the average westerner would look at and because of material poverty completely misunderstand and prejudicially demean. You seem to be a perfect example of that. "There are more things under Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio." I would point out that you are not the norm either. > > You suggest they are a problem > > for the globe while we use ten times the resources for one of our > > privileged Americans. I suggest you look around at who is really sucking > > the global teat dry. It is not poor people. > > I agree with you. However, returning to a pastoral society and ignoring > the world does not work, either. Who is talking about returning to a pastoral life. I am talking about people who never left it. But more important than that is the values of relationship and compassion that they live. These are the important aspect of what they have to teach and not "How we grow rice." or "How to build a VLSI chip." > If we choose simply to breed, be happy, and die--our existence is > pointless. The goal is to *improve* life for us all. Total bullshit. Life has intrinsic meaning and is rarely pointless. The fact that you have your compulsions is simply not my problem. Who are you anyway to judge the value of the lives of others? > > Besides Andrew let's look at some personal facts I do know about you. > > You are incredibly intelligent and gifted. This is obvious and a matter > > not of your doing but of good genetic luck. > > I take exception to that. > > I was blessed with good genetics for intelligence. Which is all I said. How can you take exception to it? Strange argumentation when you agree than do not agree. > I also worked my ass > off in school. I had practically no social life in high school, but it > got me a full scholarship for my undergraduate. And I went on from there. OK, you asked for it. I was put to work 40 hours a week for $0.25/hour on a construction site when I was 12 years old for the entire summer that school was out. My dad owned the company and he could damn well put me to work and expect effort. I was expected to do my 8 hours a day cleaning up trash. It was not fun in Southeast Texas during the 95 degree heat and humidity. And trust me, you did not want my dad to catch you slacking. After two summers of that I got to work with the crews that built foundations. They were all black and so I spent two more summers with them and learned how to build a foundation (again 40 to 50 hours/week, hard physical work in a steamy climate). By then I was 16 and eligible to be an apprentice carpenter in the union. Two summers at that with all white (segregated carpenter crews). Hot difficult physical work. Better pay though because of the union. I was an SAT killer so was admitted to Rice Institute, later University, full scholarship, but worked first two summers as carpenter in Houston to pay for living expenses. Carpenter crews were mostly Mexican many, maybe most illegals. Finally I got a summer job in the labs at Rice and did not look back. Ph.D. UCSD, Princeton, an academic life that I left behind when it began to bore me. So am I impressed with your "hard work?" Not much. I know plenty of people who work hard. I am impressed with the fact that you got a great genetic gift. > I wouldn't trade a happier social life in high school for where I am > now. Sorry. My average happiness over my life is much higher with the > choice I made. Well I am just not terribly sympathetic to your "poor" high school situtation. I can tell you stories that will chill your spine ... about family life. > > But I don't propose to speak for you nor the arrogant and elitist pigs > > you value as your friends. > > And we arrogant and elitist pigs will continue to contribute to society > even for those who do not appreciate it. I appreciate your contribution but do not appreciate your attitude, which is both arrogant and elitist. I can make a distinction between the contribution, which I respect, and the attitude, which disgusts me, which is why I refer to such people as pigs. You do not seem to be able to make any such distinction. Pity, Bob La Quey -- [email protected] http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
