On Sun, March 25, 2007 12:26 pm, Christian Seberino wrote: > > On Sun, March 25, 2007 11:08 am, Gabriel Sechan wrote: >> http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mfreereligion.htm >> Jefferson himself stated the idea of a "wall of separation". Given that >> he >> drafted the Virginia state constitution that has the same principle, and >> which our 1st amendment is based on, I trust his interpretation. > > Are you trying to just make the point that the Founding Fathers were in general very tolerant of religion and didn't want one denomination of Christianity to dominate the country? Sure that sounds reasonable. No argument. > > What is odd is when some people seem to want to paint the Founding Fathers > as flaming atheists trying to stamp out any mention of God in politics. For example, they didn't seem to have a problem with currency that says "One Nation Under God" yet today some people want to eliminate that based > on a "correct interpretation of history".
Nobody is trying to stamp out religion in politics, prayer in school, or any other religious freedom. What people like me want to stop is enforced religious observation, no matter how benign. As Molly Ivins used to point out, there's plenty of prayer in schools, especially just before math tests. What is NOT acceptible is that any publicly funded school REQUIRE any kids (or faculty, for that matter) to pray to anything. Why should my kid have to say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance (actually, why should he have to pledge allegiance at all, but that's a different thread)? Why can't he say "under Canada" or "under surveillance" or "underwear"? Why can other people I don't even know tell my kid he has to pretend he believes in any god let alone their god? As for currency, which actually says "In God We Trust," that's really more stupid than substantive, and a Supreme Court decision more or less came to the same conclusion -- that that antique motto is really meaningless and therefore not of any religious significance. (Don't recall when, 1930s IIRC.) BTW, for anyone who might argue that taking god off the dollar bill or out of the pledge will inevitably lead to rampant homosexuality and carnage in the streets, I might point out that both were inserted during the Eisenhower administration as a sop to the religious right. http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/23188.html So anyone who argues that lack of those rather insipid words will lead to every behavior of Sodom and Gemorrah will have to explain to me why the US was a fairly tame place BEFORE 1956. > > Even your beloved Jefferson mentioned God in his Declaration Of > Independence. Jefferson was a self-declared deist, which was the 18th Century equivalent of a Wiccan, sort of. You could look it up ... he wasn't shy about it. Google "thomas jefferson religion" and stand back, the guy said a lot. No, I'll do it for you: http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm > And, Washington in his Farewell Address said: > > "Of all the habits and dispositions which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports." > >From Wikipedia: The religious views of George Washington are a matter of some controversy. There is some evidence that he, like many intellectuals of his time, was a deist believing in Divine Providence, but not believing in divine intervention in the world after the initial design. Before the American Revolution, when the Church of England was still the state religion in Virginia, he served as a member of the vestry (lay council) for his local congregation. He spoke often of the value of religion in general, and sometimes accompanied his wife Martha Washington (a devout Episcopalian) to Christian church services. However, there is no record of his ever becoming a communicant in any Christian church and he would regularly leave services before communionwith the other non-communicants. When the Rev. Dr. James Abercrombie, rector of St. Peter's Episcopal Church in Philadelphia, mentioned in a weekly sermon (with Washington in attendance) that those in elevated stations set an unhappy example by leaving at communion, Washington reportedly remarked that he had not sufficiently considered the example set by his leaving, and ceased attending at all on communion Sundays. Long after Washington died, when asked about Washington's beliefs, Abercrombie replied: "Sir, Washington was a Deist." An unfinished book of copied prayers attributed to him as a youth by a collector was rejected by the Smithsonian Institution for lack of authenticity [1]. Various prayers said to have been composed by him in his later life are highly edited. He did not ask for any clergyman on his deathbed, although one was available. The Episcopal Order of Burial was read at his funeral. See also George Washington and religion ********* I don't know where you're coming from on this, Chris, but people who want to argue that this country was FOUNDED as a christian nation really don't have a whole hell of a lot to back them up. Sure, there were christians on the job, and the culture of the founders came mostly from christian Europe, but they left lots of explicit statements that a christian nation was NOT their intent. If anyone wants to argue that this country SHOULD BE a christian nation, well then we have something that we can discuss as reasonable people. -- Lan Barnes SCM Analyst Linux Guy Tcl/Tk Enthusiast Biodiesel Brewer -- [email protected] http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
