http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html
The Price of the Divide on Libya By Guest <http://www.kabobfest.com/author/guest> ⋅ April 5, 2011 ⋅ Post a comment<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#comments> Contributed by Tasnim *Note:* This post is in response to The price of Dignity in Libya<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-dignity-in-libya.html>by Roqayah Chamseddine. In an earlier post, Libya from a Libyan’s Perspective<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/03/libya-from-a-libyans-perspective.html>, I responded to Sarakenos’ post Libya in Perspective<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/03/libya-in-perspective.html>.This was before the military intervention in Libya. <http://www.kabobfest.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/libyaprotest1.jpg>The military intervention in Libya has divided the left into two camps, the pro-interventionists<http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/an-open-letter-to-the-left-on-libya.html>and the anti-imperialists who define it as a military assault equivalent to the war in Iraq<http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/03/doomed-to-repetition.html>. At the centre of this division is an apparent contradiction between supporting the people’s revolution against autocracy and an anti-imperialist stance which denounces western hypocrisy. As a Libyan, I reject this false contradiction. I see myself as an anti-imperialist, I denounce western double standards, and I supported the revolution and the intervention. I see no need to twist myself into an arguing position where I declare myself to be for the people’s revolution, but against the intervention that sustained it. That, to me, would be the contradiction. The accusations levelled at the pro-interventionists include naivety, hypocrisy, and selling their soul (and dignity) to the devil. The rhetorical questions fly: How can you believe this is a humanitarian intervention? Who bolstered Gaddafi? How about Bahrain, Yemen, Palestine? Afghanistan, Iraq, see what they did there? Rwanda, see what they didn’t do there? Do the three letters O-I-L mean anything to you? The charge of naivety is popular, because proving you’re not naive can be difficult. I don’t speak for Libyans, but I can speak for myself and those I know, and we don’t need to be told that those intervening in Libya are acting in their own interests. None of us believe that this so-called humanitarian intervention is motivated solely by concern for human life. We know who rehabilitated Gaddafi. We watched Berlusconi kiss his hand <http://www.globeboss.com/videos/berlusconi-bows-before-gaddafi-and-kisses-his-hands/>and Clinton pose with his son Mutassim<http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/04/hillary_clinton_met_with_mutas>and Blair sit in his tent <http://www.economist.com/node/2545931> and announce a New Era, all when the brutality of the regime was being masked by the thinnest possible patina of change, the change of Saif’s western bought PR<http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/04/the-monitor-group-gadaffi-pr> . We also remember when Gaddafi was lionized by some in the left as an anti-imperialist Nasserite during the 70s and 80s, a time when people were hung in public and Libyans were poisoned against progressive ideas<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/magazine/mag-03Libya-t.html?pagewanted=8&%2359;partner=rss&%2359&_r=1&%2359;pagewanted=all&%2359;emc=rss>because of the brutality of the regime that pretended to espouse them. We remember when Gaddafi was the enemy of the west. We remember Operation El Dorado Canyon. We remember the collective punishment of sanctions<http://www.mafhoum.com/press3/87E11.htm>as a whole nation was held responsible for Pan Am 103, only adding to the suffering of the most vulnerable. We remember when we were the pariah-state, and Libyans were the terrorists after the plutonium. We don’t need to be told that this intervention is, as one friend put it, mish ashan sawad eyona – not for the sake of our eyes. None of us are apolitical or naive, we haven’t had a chance to be. Yet all of us support the intervention. To denounce Libyan pro-interventionist stances as naive is condescending, imperious and an insult to our knowledge of our own history. I find it amusing that self-declared anti-imperialists flourish Libya’s history in the face of Libyans who support the intervention, when some of them knew no more about Libya a couple of months ago than its location on the map. And that it was ruled by a madman. Cross-examining the military intervention does not make me uncomfortable. I am aware of the need to be wary. I am aware that western countries could easily have looked the other way and continued benefiting from their deals with the Gaddafi regime, and I am aware that by intervening they are banking on new deals and new interests. What saddens me is the morally bankrupt arguments made by those intent on justifying their anti-imperialist stance at all costs, to the extent they will mine neoconservative material and echo Gaddafi’s accusations to prove the “rebels” are Al Qaeda, or CIA<http://tarpley.net/2011/03/24/the-cia%E2%80%99s-libya-rebels-the-same-terrorists-who-killed-us-nato-troops-in-iraq/>. Some have justified the crackdown, using Gaddafi’s claims of secessionist movements, ignoring the fact that resistance is as strong in Misrata in the West as in Benghazi in the East. Some have gone further than that to deny Gaddafi’s atrocities took place. Others don’t even venture into this territory but still elect to wag their fingers at Libyans for submitting to imperialism. And when these arguments offend a Libyan, an anti-imperialist declares: “I relish in the fact that you are offended. I enjoy it.” <http://www.kabobfest.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/libyaprotest2.jpg>I find it a little counter-intuitive to deny atrocities took place to prove that atrocities will take place. Yet when I look at the arguments of those who oppose the intervention and the methods some of them resort to, I’m reminded why I made my decision. I need the reminder because it was not an easy decision to make. The morning I woke up to find a column of tanks a few kilometres outside Benghazi and wished for air-strikes to make them disappear, I asked myself whether it was only because I am Libyan. I imagined an alternate universe where the Arab League and the UN had made the same choices during the Gaza massacre. For me, it’s a no-brainer. Whether they called it a “no fly zone plus” or a “kinetic military action,” if it took out the jets and the tanks heading into town, I would have supported it, as long as those on the ground supported it. I look to the cities that have been bombarded by Gaddafi’s forces for over a month – Misrata and Zintan and the western mountain area – and I see none of the intellectual arguments against intervention coming from them. So I support them. I support the opposition in every Arab country rising up, I am an activist for Palestine and against the War on Terror, and I support the Libyan uprising. In all cases, I take my cue from the people most affected, not from pundits. The Libyans dreamed briefly about a revolution like the one in Tunisia or Egypt. One where we could go out and chant “silmiya.” Instead, we had to gofrom unarmed demonstrations<http://yfrog.com/h7ucplxj>faced with heavy calibre weapons<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCg-mrzHR9Q&feature=related&skipcontrinter=1>to forming a civilian ragtag army, and then Gaddafi’s brigades sent that ragtag army into retreat. Our dreams were confronted with Gaddafi’s zenga zenga speech. We had to be realistic about our newborn revolution, because it was about to be “cleansed” off the face of the earth. So what should we have done? Sit on our hands and wait for death? Maybe we shouldn’t have carried weapons at all<http://www.wsm.ie/c/libyan-anarchist-denounce-western-intervention>? After all, what right did Libyans have to decide to arm themselves when they were being torn literally into two <http://yfrog.com/h4oacietj>? Clearly stoic pacifism would have softened Saif’s heart or increased Gaddafi’s mental capabilities. We adjusted. That optimistic banner that read “No foreign intervention, the Libyan people can manage it alone,” was accompanied by requests for a no fly zone and support from the international community, with Libyans understanding it to mean that no one wanted full-scale ground forces and an occupation of Libya. That remains the position every Libyan I know believes in. We would have preferred Arab support, but apart from Qatar and the UAE, it didn’t happen. So what were our options? Those who opposed the intervention seem short on realistic alternatives. The idea that the Libyans must allow their nascent revolution to be crushed by a brutal regime which has recently been bolstered by the west rather than accept western intervention in the hope for a better future – that idea seems to me to be based on an exasperatingly short memory. The west has it’s interests, the anti-imperialists warn. Just a few sentences prior, they will have pointed out that the west aided the Gaddafi regime. Clearly, those insidious interests did not magically appear with the disastrous imperialist intervention, and they won’t magically disappear after it. The self-described anti-imperialist camp describe themselves as cynical, to further the argument that everyone else is a naive, western stooge. I would argue that a position which holds that you should let yourself fall into an abyss rather than accept any helping hand is a quintessentially idealist (and fatalist) one. I question their cynical credentials. This is not a refutation of the anti-imperialist argument, because the “I’m for the revolution, against the imperialist war” stance can be a comfortable one. It’s principled and it’s consistent, because that’s what you always will be when you’re blind to your own contradictions. What I want to bring attention to is the price. Not the price of dignity, because I would never question the dignity of any people fighting for their freedom, but the price of depicting the Libyans as sell-outs. I believe in Arab unity more than ever in this Arab Spring. I’ve seen it and shared it with my Tunisian and Egyptian friends, and I’m hoping to share it with every Arab I know. What poisons the revolution is not western interests – those are facts, they are on the ground and in play in every single country in the region. What poisons the revolution is division, and the rhetoric that fosters division. Roqaya Chamseddine has criticized the pro-interventionists for emotive rhetoric. I find that slightly ironic, given her description of dignity as “a thin string being pulled two and fro, so close to snapping in two, you can hear the sound of screams as each fiber is lacerated.” If that is not emotive rhetoric, I don’t know what is. Chamseddine goes on to pose a series of emotive rhetorical questions, bloodied hands of empire, submission, bended knees and boot-shining included. She cites Omar Mukhtar, implying our ancestor would be turning over in his grave. She notes that he chose to be hanged rather than be a puppet. Taking this analogy to its logical conclusion, some Libyans criticized her for essentially recommending Libyans go hang. I’ll be charitable and take this appropriation of the Libyan hero Omar Mukhtar against the Libyan people as a warning not to be puppets. I hope she’ll be pleased we’re taking her sage advice. We refuse to be puppets to a madman who has become a puppet to the west any longer. We will continue this struggle until we are rid of him, and as the Egyptians and the Tunisians have done before us, we’ll continue it after we are rid of him. Because this is a long journey we’ve embarked on. But as Omar Mokhtar said: “We are a people who don’t surrender. We are victorious, or we die.” For additional information and perspective: http://twitter.com/feb17voices http://www.libyafeb17.com/ http://feb17.info/ http://alive.in/libya/ http://www.youtube.com/user/miusrata17miusrata http://www.youtube.com/user/zintan2011 Related posts: 1. The price of Dignity in Libya<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-dignity-in-libya.html> 2. Libya from a Libyan’s Perspective<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/03/libya-from-a-libyans-perspective.html> 3. Libya Queues and the No-Fly Zone Quagmire<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/03/libya-queues-in-the-no-fly-zone-quagmire.html> 4. Libya In Perspective<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/03/libya-in-perspective.html> 5. Italy To Recompensate Libya for “Colonial Era” (1911-1943)<http://www.kabobfest.com/2008/09/italy-to-recompensate-libya-for-colonial-era-1911-1943.html> *Filed Under* guest post <http://www.kabobfest.com/tag/guest-post>, imperialism <http://www.kabobfest.com/tag/imperialism>, Libya<http://www.kabobfest.com/tag/libya> Close<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#> Forgot password? *Please put in your email:* Send me my password!<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#> Close message<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#> Login - This blog post - All blog posts Subscribe to this blog post's comments through... : Date Rating Last Activity Loading comments... You are about to flag this comment as being inappropriate. Please explain why you are flagging this comment in the text box below and submit your report. The blog admin will be notified. Thank you for your input. +1 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/MazMHussain> @MazMHussain <http://twitter.com/MazMHussain>*· 2 days ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139917001> * Regarding the banner pictured in the article, that's some impressive graphic design for a revolution. Written in English no less..... Report Reply 0 replies *· active less than 1 minute ago* +2 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/MazMHussain> @MazMHussain <http://twitter.com/MazMHussain>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139918805> * Excellent article.The intervention began when Saif Islam claimed to be 24 hours from Benghazi, I don't understand the position that potentially hundreds of thousands of Libyans in Benghazi should be die for "anti-imperialism". I'm against empire too, but not with the practical short term result that people who are asking for help should die. Gaddafi and his sons made a great case for intervention themselves by killing unarmed protestors with anti-aircraft guns and fighter planes and making obscene threats of further violence against the Libyan people. Its easy to abide strictly to an ideal when you don't have to deal with the consequences. Report Reply 1 reply *· active less than 1 minute ago* +1 Vote up Vote down [image: Souad's avatar] Souad *· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139932799> * Maz, Thank you I agree with all you said here. Report Reply +3 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://thecynicalarab.wordpress.com/> Roqayah <http://thecynicalarab.wordpress.com/>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139932242> * I thoroughly enjoyed reading your piece, though I strongly disagree I have no "major stake" in respect to the people of Libya; it is a battle which connects me as an Arab and as a human being but in the end the vents transpiring will mean far more to those engaged, those who are Libyan. In the end the choice is theirs, not mine and not anyone else's. I made remarks against emotive rhetoric in dialogue when they are not coupled with fact. I contend that I was rash, as my frustration grew in light of my questions being ignored and deflection mounting. For that I apologize to whomever I offended. My own stance against the military intercession though has not wavered, not due to any sense of cynicism or arrogance but because I am not convinced. Again, it does not matter in respect to me as a person whether or not the events taking place suit my ideals, opinions etc. I will watch and make remarks knowing that my beliefs are my own. I speak on behalf of no one else. And also, the "I hope she'll be pleased we're taking her sage advice" is a bit much no? I wrote an article per request in order to vent and shed a little light on the anti-interventionist camp; one ignored or spat upon by the mainstream, conventional body of activist's etc. There are many who have conveyed, factually, their personal opinions based on historical precedence; far better than I did. One is anthropologist Max Forte. Either way, I enjoyed your piece - though we may have to respectfully disagree. Report Reply 3 replies *· active 1 day ago* +1 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ> @TasnimQ <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139969612> * Thank you for commenting, Roqayah. I have never argued non-Libyans have no stake in what is happening in Libya. In light of the evolution and repercussions of the Arab awakening, that would be patently ludicrous. My argument is against a false dichotomy, the idea that you are either anti-interventionist (thus anti-imperialist) or an abject boot-shining stooge of imperialism with no dignity. I appreciate the apology you offer to those you offended and I hope they accept it. Like Yara, I fully respect the anti-interventionist stance. I respect people like Azmi Bishara and Dima Khatib, and I share their concerns and apprehensions. But I don't respect the campaign to discredit and castigate the Libyan uprising. That is not putting a final nail in the pro-interventionist argument, but hammering nails through the coffins of our marytrs. I can't stand by while their dignity is questioned. As for "sage advice" being a bit much - I went with the view that if you can dish it out, you're tough enough to take it. I intended it to be quite mild, but I'll admit to having a minor sarcasm addiction. I apologize for misjudging it. I understand and respect your motivation for writing the article, if not the tack you chose to take. I responded to provide a Libyan perspective. I also responded to your words, not Max Forte's, although I'm prepared to address the points raised in his autopsy of the Libyan revolution. I'm prepared to respectfully disagree, or respectfully debate. Either would be preferable to the frankly painful comment section on "the price of Dignity." Report Reply [image: Loading...] +1 Vote up Vote down [image: thecynicalarab's avatar - Go to profile] <http://intensedebate.com/profiles/thecynicalarab> thecynicalarab <http://intensedebate.com/profiles/thecynicalarab> 29p *· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139997234> * The anti-interventionist camp questions whether the hand being extended towards the people of Libya is "a helping hand" as you noted. There is overwhelming evidence that the military intercession is transforming into something much more than just the attacking of tanks et al. in order to weaken the Gaddafi blocs http://exm.nr/hagxwQ "...the CIA has been working in Libya for several weeks" I respect and revere the true liberators - the martyrs of all revolutions. Questioning the intention of the foreign military intercession and therein vehemently aligning ourselves against such questionable intervention, in which historical precedence proves to be damning, may not be considered a conventional way to support the revolutionaries but I present the contention that it is. It is because I do not wish to see foreign intervention that will further destabilize the region, it is because I do not wish to see Libya partitioned or used/pillaged. It is not because of arrogance, misplaced cynicism etc. It is because of precedence and honest and humble reverence. Because history is often ignored, far too often and we only head its warning much too late. Report Reply +1 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ> @TasnimQ <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment140138631> * Thanks Roqayah, I take your reply as an indication we're going for respectful debate. As I made clear in my post, no Libyan I know thinks this is purely a humanitarian intervention, so hopefully we can lay this aspect of the discussion to rest. Like you, we question the motivations behind it, and the consequences that will come of it. My point about “a helping hand” is not a reference to the agenda behind the intervention - that would have contradicted my own argument - but an illustration of the idealism of the supposedly cynical anti-interventionist view. One of the reasons I stand by my position is that I'm not an idealist but a realist. In response to the quote on the CIA, I lift this from my post: “western interests...are on the ground and in play in every single country in the region.” I don't believe any Arab country currently experiencing change is immune from the agency. That said, I accept Libya is on a different level, and as I have noted, we share the apprehensions of the anti-interventionist camp. Opposing foreign military intercession while supporting the revolutionaries is not at all unconventional. As I said, I fully respect, understand and share the concerns of that position. However, I present the contention that questioning their dignity for “shaking the bloodied hands of an empire” and "submission, on bended knee, in order to shine the steel-toed boots” of ex-colonial regimes is more divisive than supportive, and owes more to rhetoric than reality. On that, we may have to agree to disagree. Personally, I don't believe the most pressing question here is whether or not the intervention compromises our dignity. None of us want to see foreign intervention further destabilize the region, and none of us want to see Libya partitioned or pillaged. We share the same fears, and I think we have the same hopes. This is precisely why I don't see the need for divisive rhetoric. That said, I appreciate the strength of your convictions and I do think this is an important debate. Report Reply 0 Vote up Vote down [image: Souad's avatar] Souad *· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139934043> * Tasnim and Kabobfest, I am very happy to read this article here, it almost erases the anger I felt when Roqayah piece was published :) I am glad to see that humanity did not completely get lost in the apprehension we feel about Western imperialism in our beloved Libya! Report Reply 2 replies *· active 1 day ago* 0 Vote up Vote down [image: Adam Albrett's avatar] Adam Albrett *· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139935634> * Professor Stephen M. Walt (walt.foreignpolicy.com)t: Since taking office, Barack Obama has escalated U.S. involvement in Afghanistan and launched a new war against Libya. As in Iraq, the real purpose of our intervention is regime change at the point of a gun. At first we hoped that most of the guns would be in the hands of the Europeans, or the hands of the rebel forces arrayed against Qaddafi, but it's increasingly clear that U.S. military forces, CIA operatives and foreign weapons supplies are going to be necessary to finish the job. Moreover, as Alan Kuperman of the University of Texas and Stephen Chapman of the Chicago Tribune have now shown, the claim that the United States had to act to prevent Libyan tyrant Muammar al-Qaddafi from slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Benghazi does not stand up to even casual scrutiny. Although everyone recognizes that Qaddafi is a brutal ruler, his forces did not conduct deliberate, large-scale massacres in any of the cities he has recaptured, and his violent threats to wreak vengeance on Benghazi were directed at those who continued to resist his rule, not at innocent bystanders. There is no question that Qaddafi is a tyrant with few (if any) redemptive qualities, but the threat of a bloodbath that would "stain the conscience of the world" (as Obama put it) was slight. Addicted to Adventurism: Why the US can't stop intervening http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/04/03/to...<http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/04/03/top_five_reasons_we_keep_fighting_all_these_wars> Report Reply 0 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ> @TasnimQ <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment139972106> * I agree - different views, same apprehensions. I hope we can live with the divide. Sa7a leek for your comments. Report Reply 0 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/fireandgame> @fireandgame <http://twitter.com/fireandgame>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment140034817> * Your article is PERFECT. It's complex and well documented: the truth is never simple.... Report Reply 0 replies *· active less than 1 minute ago* -2 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/fireandgame> @fireandgame <http://twitter.com/fireandgame>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment140049041> * It's time to say plainly that imperialists and WESTERN anti-imperialists have the same fear.The freedom fighters are potentially "dangerous" because they are uncontrollable. Report Reply 0 replies *· active less than 1 minute ago* +1 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/Falasteeni> @Falasteeni <http://twitter.com/Falasteeni>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment140128745> * Tasnim, thank you for this. It was a fantastic read. Roqayyah raised some points that I was inclined to agree with in her post, but your measured, calm response has stirred up an honest debate. Like you both mentioned, the comments section on the other post devolved into something painful, so I'm glad you've taken the impetus to respond here. I still have questions that I feel need to be asked. I'm working on a brief piece that should be up sometime tomorrow (Tuesday)-hope you'll be there to provide any answers you may have. Report Reply 1 reply *· active 1 day ago* +1 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ> @TasnimQ <http://twitter.com/TasnimQ>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment140142345> * @Falasteeni, I look forward to reading it. I wrote my response to Roqaya after reading through that painful comments section - the anti-interventionists accusing Libyans of "selling their country cheaply" while the pro-interventionists accused the anti-interventionists of "selling Libyan blood for slogans." Reading through those 172 comments wasn't a good idea. I was not as calm or measured as I should have been, and I think it's because I was responding as much to those comments as to Roqayah's piece. Report Reply +1 Vote up Vote down [image: 's avatar - Go to profile] <http://twitter.com/ArKersaint> @ArKersaint <http://twitter.com/ArKersaint>*· 1 day ago<http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/04/the-price-of-the-divide-on-libya.html#IDComment140155722> * @ Tasnilm : Very nice and mature article, I fully support @Adam Albrett : Why would Obama have initially shown so shy with the hidden strategy you have described ? You said Qaddafi did not achieve massive slaughters so far... But he said he would ! Please remind Hitler's Mein Kampf : There he told what he minded... and several years after, he did it ! Why not believe Qaddafi will do the same once his regime saved ? Of course Hitler wad mad... Qaddhafi is mad as well ! 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