MF-W, I never saw your email on the proposed LPP changes at the time. What's more, I just looked through my email again, and still didn't see it. I only found your response when I looked at the online archive of the private list. I don't know what happened there, but I really was not trying to ignore any input. I promise you that, and apologize that it must appear otherwise.
I will not post the proposed changes live today at all. I will move them back to my sandbox, unhide them, and incorporate many of your comments. Look here<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:StevenJ81/sandbox> (perhaps an hour after this email): Just a few points in response to that email: * The reason I added the introductory remark is that people always keep asking why such-and-such project is allowed (Latin Wikipedia is often cited) when it goes against policy. I added that line to forestall the constant questions. If you don't think it should stay, that's fine, but that's why I put it. * New point 1 was old point 1, too. (It's not actually a new point.) The only thing that actually changed was a footnote leading to the place where completely new projects can be requested. On the current version of the page you'll see that. I can remove if you want, but it was already there. * Point 2 included the BCP 47 issue already. But I will remove the 2/3 vote bit. * Point 3: I will shorten the macrolanguage part. * Point 4: Concerning ancient languages: * I was confused, then, by what happened with Coptic. When I went back just now and looked at the discussion on Coptic in July 2017, what I saw didn't really say much on a Coptic Wikipedia; it spoke more to the possibility of a Wikisource and of interface translation, with some people saying that potentially they could see a Coptic Wikipedia being allowed in the future. Then you marked the project on-wiki as "eligible". * It seems to me that it will be hard to say that Coptic can be eligible but Ancient Greek cannot. I tried to write that provision narrowly, so as to capture Ancient Greek without opening the door to every ancient language in history. I do think, especially given Coptic, that we need to allow Ancient Greek. But if the Committee thinks it's better to say "we decided to allow it notwithstanding policy as an exception", that's OK. * I think Wikipedia is different from other projects with respect to ancient languages, though. I think it's entirely reasonable to imagine that someone who knows Latin or Ancient Greek might go to those Wikipedias to look up something about Rome or Athens. (That's certainly as reasonable as someone going to Jamaican Creole Wikipedia to look up something about Jamaica.) I don't think I can really see that someone would go to an Ancient Greek or Latin Wikivoyage to look at travel issues, even about Rome or Athens. That's why I handled those differently. Again, though, if Ancient Greek (and Coptic) Wikipedias end up as exceptions, then this becomes a non-issue. Steven Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook> ________________________________ From: Langcom <[email protected]> on behalf of [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 5:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Langcom Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 Send Langcom mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569583118&sdata=Xw1%2BznukGMfvLfI5hCUhvDBxEcD8s3MRL5%2FiAIJDzx4%3D&reserved=0 or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Langcom digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Proposed changes to LPP (Steven White) 2. Request rejected without discussion (MF-Warburg) 3. Re: Proposed changes to LPP (MF-Warburg) 4. Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese (Steven White) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 20:29:52 +0000 From: Steven White <[email protected]> To: "WMF LangCom (public)" <[email protected]> Subject: [Langcom] Proposed changes to LPP Message-ID: <dm6pr04mb5676573895f5bcaaec21c9839e...@dm6pr04mb5676.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The changes I proposed to LPP, which I first shared with the rest of the Committee on the private email list on 3 December 2018, will be posted on Meta for discussion a little later today (my time). The page containing the (proposed) revised policy is here<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLanguage_proposal_policy%2F2-2019_proposed_revision&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569583118&sdata=geI%2FXrzrRk97FBl7v6kAPCse6PBxK9maSRKG5Swbk%2Fw%3D&reserved=0>; discussion will be on that page's talk page. I intend to leave the discussion up until the end of February, unless discussion really fades out before then. Steven Sent from Outlook<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569593135&sdata=UcmFBKuxukrmszm1uSKHOR%2FLeDptJxaeAZO7jSitWwg%3D&reserved=0> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20190204%2F541ff667%2Fattachment-0001.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569593135&sdata=AxFYgUFqHHHbzZBmTDuXbS3EDQTEck4wuyLPUwfAMSc%3D&reserved=0> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 22:47:23 +0100 From: MF-Warburg <[email protected]> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <[email protected]> Subject: [Langcom] Request rejected without discussion Message-ID: <cajkmomxdtjispme1qs63_5t4s_snmhcjrw5rwptkojftmck...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi, a community member brought https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRequests_for_new_languages%2FWikisource_Literary_Chinese&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569593135&sdata=hHdK8tumgQKwhiHVspSCZDbE964fJ7E7vXtf7D9n9Os%3D&reserved=0 to my attention. I see that Steven closed it as rejected. I am flabbergasted, as this request has not been discussed here at all. In my mail archive, I only see a mail from Steven from Nov 8, where he says it should probably be marked as eligible. I have not yet read all of the discussion on the request page, but from a first glance, I see the some very good arguments in favour of such a project. I really don't understand why you marked this request as "rejected", even though there has been 0 discussion in the committee, and even with some self-invented rules like "Future requests will not be allowed at all for two years". I therefore reverted it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20190204%2Fd6179343%2Fattachment-0001.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569593135&sdata=aJqsENn2j2eUQUITc33fB2EpqnZ%2BiXxmKDfTkf2bgfM%3D&reserved=0> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 22:52:24 +0100 From: MF-Warburg <[email protected]> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Langcom] Proposed changes to LPP Message-ID: <CAJKMOMXLD_A4q7Anc+3X=v5gkv4zp3+3t+xizv8+snuwvea...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" My irritation continues in this thread. In the discussion on the private list, I have made several remarks about the proposed changes. I never received an answer to them and now on the Meta page I see that *none *of them have been reflected in the draft. Yes, sometimes Langcom discussions attract a low level of participation, but then you have to at least work with what you get and not ignore it. What is happening? Am Mo., 4. Feb. 2019 um 21:30 Uhr schrieb Steven White < [email protected]>: > The changes I proposed to LPP, which I first shared with the rest of the > Committee on the private email list on 3 December 2018, will be posted on > Meta for discussion a little later today (my time). The page containing the > (proposed) revised policy is here > <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLanguage_proposal_policy%2F2-2019_proposed_revision&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569593135&sdata=rcABaScn%2BVnodEUuD55ZYQcxz0D0tvY16EglhesoYiU%3D&reserved=0>; > discussion will be on that page's talk page. I intend to leave the > discussion up until the end of February, unless discussion really fades out > before then. > > Steven > > Sent from Outlook > <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569593135&sdata=UcmFBKuxukrmszm1uSKHOR%2FLeDptJxaeAZO7jSitWwg%3D&reserved=0> > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > [email protected] > https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569593135&sdata=4hs37%2BldaBhruDuFJsXclK5qqhzkK52LUMTkH3gkabQ%3D&reserved=0 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20190204%2F5a3daaae%2Fattachment-0001.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569603140&sdata=LYtfeeJmt01xTP3TVIwfGbblIhAjUo2hymy57EvZsos%3D&reserved=0> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 22:39:04 +0000 From: Steven White <[email protected]> To: "WMF LangCom (public)" <[email protected]> Subject: [Langcom] Requests for new languages: Wikisource Literary Chinese Message-ID: <dm6pr04mb56766cce504bec7b133053629e...@dm6pr04mb5676.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" MF-Warburg reversed what he felt was a premature and unilateral decision on my part to reject this request, and rightly so. (This is not least because I just promised to continue to post non-routine closings here.) My apologies to the Committee. Nevertheless, I am proposing to reject this request, which has been actively running for about three months. In certain respects, Literary Chinese has parallels to Latin, in that it was the literary lingua franca in much of East Asia—not just China—for centuries. On the basis of policy, one could thus justify allowing this as an independent project (currently in Multilingual Wikisource). At the same time, it is also a historical version of Chinese, and on the basis of policy, one could also justify housing this content in Chinese Wikisource. As a practical matter, there is substantial Literary Chinese content in Chinese Wikisource already, and very little in Multilingual Wikisource. Except for the person who made the request, everyone else who contributed to the discussion on Meta feels that Literary Chinese is adequately and properly curated on Chinese Wikisource. Over the course of the discussion, I made one request of the Chinese Wikisource community, and that was to make it possible for non-Mandarin speakers having an interest in this content to have a way to communicate other than in Mandarin. They have done so. It doesn't really serve the bulk of the Literary Chinese community, nor WMF in general, to split Literary Chinese out from Chinese Wikisource as an independent project. The objections of the one user making the request notwithstanding, Wikisource content in Literary Chinese is better off staying in Chinese Wikisource. The discussion page is here<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeta.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRequests_for_new_languages%2FWikisource_Literary_Chinese&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569603140&sdata=aWbAZxSf1BADvEY6WZ1f4Qz0D3tucTy9grPKdNu73dA%3D&reserved=0>. Thank you in advance for your comments. If there are not objections in seven days, I will proceed to close. Steven Sent from Outlook<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C792f97400d4c4ae4138008d68af19800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636849167569603140&sdata=PX%2F3BmPxygTWV5xDgm3JdCJ%2B46JErUMENobKK2J%2FYZ8%3D&reserved=0> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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