Hi everyone, Forgive me if this has already been visibly discussed, but it seems that these discussions start to loose meaning when looking at this issue from a broader perspective.
From my talks with various people, I understand that the central motivation to have a separate CNR project is that HR, BS, and SR exist. I think that these existing, while CNR is not allowed to be, undisputedly sends the wrong signal. HR, BS, and SR would not be accepted if the question was raised in the current day and age. I understand that it is unfair, and I think that many other people here recognise that too. I am looking to communicate with as many people from these communities as possible, especially CNR, to talk about what we can do about this situation. There is a recent unformalised initiative to merge the four projects in the (in lack of a better name) Serbo-Croatian language. People have been saying that this is impossible, but we are, however, making great progress. If the people supporting the efforts had more available time, I estimate that we would likely see the first big step being taken within the next 12 months. So if someone from CNR is reading this, please reach out to me. I would like to understand your perspective better. Everyone is talking about the CNR project and the unfortunate situation that this is, but no-one knows the people behind it. Whatever happens, I hope that we end up with a result that best supports our common goal: to strengthen access to free knowledge. Lijep pozdrav, Denis Smajlović User:Deni > On 28 Apr 2023, at 13.23, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > wrote: > > For many years, the Language committee had these two policies ( > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_proposal_policy ): > 1. "The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to develop new linguistic > entities; there must be an extensive body of works in that language." > 2. "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a > more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and > different written forms of the same language. The degree of difference > required is considered on a case-by-case basis. The committee does not > consider political differences, since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to > give every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human > knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual political > communities." > > Both of these policies are sensible. We have projects for languages, not > countries. We don't have Austrian, Brazilian, or Balearic Wikipedias; we have > German, Portuguese, and Catalan. > > All the discussions about Montenegrin have emphasized that it is official > under its own name in the constitution of the country of Montenegro. > Everyone's attempts to get examples of actual differences between Serbian and > Montenegrin were either unanswered, or answered with examples of very minor > differences in spelling; differences that aren't bigger than the ones between > OED and Merriam-Webster English. Even finding examples of *actual* usage of > the two extra letters in the Montenegrin alphabet have proved nearly > impossible (my guess is that it's only a proposed alphabet, which is not > actually used for casual writing, publishing, or teaching literacy, but > correct me if I'm wrong). > > Jon Harald noticed the lack of "paper trail" for the addition of cnr to ISO > 639 3, and this is indeed concerning. This, too, is a guess, but it probably > means that it's based only on a political distinction, and not on actual > linguistic differences. > > -- > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > http://aharoni.wordpress.com <http://aharoni.wordpress.com/> > “We're living in pieces, > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > > בתאריך יום ו׳, 28 באפר׳ 2023 ב-22:47 מאת Kimberli Mäkäräinen > <kimberli.makarai...@tuni.fi <mailto:kimberli.makarai...@tuni.fi>>: >> One more thing to consider: Glottolog has a separate entry for Montenegrin >> Standard, parallel to, so not the same as Bosnian Standard, Croatian >> Standard, and Serbian Standard. >> >> mvh. K >> From: Jon Harald Søby <jhs...@gmail.com <mailto:jhs...@gmail.com>> >> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2023 3:32 PM >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>> >> Subject: [Langcom] Re: Montenegrin - ineligible? >> >> Montenegrin is probably the longest-standing issue we have in the language >> committee, and it has been requested numerous times through the years. In >> the beginning of the language committee, the nation of Montenegro itself was >> brand new, and Montenegrin had already been "lumped in" with Serbian for a >> long time (well, at least since the Serbo-Croatian code was split up). >> >> For a number of years, and this may be why LangCom's stance on Montenegrin >> has been the same, Montenegrin simply didn't meet one of the formal >> criteria: having an ISO 639 code. Then, in 2017, the language finally got >> its own code, but there was skepticism within the committee because the code >> was an ISO 639-2 code and not an ISO 639-3 code. The registrar for ISO 639-2 >> is the US Library of Congress, while the registrar for ISO 639-3 is SIL >> International. For all their faults, the latter is at least perceived to be >> more linguistic-minded, but many people saw the code coming to ISO 639-2 >> first as a sign that this was a politically motivated decision, and not a >> linguistically motivated one. A single language (and not a language >> group/macrolanguage) having a code in ISO 639-2 and not in ISO 639-3 was a >> highly unusual situation. >> >> However, it seems to me that the code was also added to ISO 639-3 later >> without much fanfare, though there isn't the usual paper trail on the ISO >> website: https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/cnr >> >> I have dug up previous discussions from the mailing lists that I would >> advice all language committee members to read through. Most of them are on >> the internal list, because the discussions happened before we reached >> consensus to have a public list. That means they are not available to >> external list observers, but committee members should have access. If you >> don't, reach out to me off-list, and I will help guide you through the >> process. >> >> 1. April 2007: The thread "Incubator and conditional approvals >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/SHTWGL2X4P6CSPBNOYFZPWB3YXQHMXC4/>". >> It is a very long thread, the parts most relevant for Montenegrin happen in >> mails 2–8, but the rest can be an interesting read too if you want more >> context. >> 2. March 2010: A single email "Request for Wikipedia in Montenegrin >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/Y353WE3DXCVYJJ2P2CUTMYQX5EUV5HOY/>" >> from our now-former member, User:Millosh, who is himself Serbian and >> therefore knows the local situation quite well. >> 3. December 2010: The thread "Montenegrin Wikipedia rejected >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/5IS5EGP5OGC52D6N3SXL5C4RML7PKG2R/>"; >> it was rejected because a pending request to add an ISO 639-3 code for >> Montenegrin was rejected (or not acted upon?) by the registering authority. >> 4. May 2011: The thread "Montenegrin 4 >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/BNCFO6RKUDCVMANTXWKTWY5QGQ35V6DV/>"; >> rejected because of continued lack of ISO 639 code. >> 5. Also May 2011: The thread "orthographies and macro-languages >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/7PCHCWS7ZXG2SBT26HBC2GQODTRBRMI4/>", >> giving some details about the relationship of the various Serbo-Croatian >> languages. >> 6. July 2011: Parts of the thread "Eligible status for Wikipedia in Tunisian >> Arabic >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/HVA4IZV2B6BZGHL6LNUMHATZ4QTF3LKB/>", >> which went a bit off that topic. >> 7. March 2017: The thread "Rejection of Wikipedia Prekmurian >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/J4RIHJQ2N7CTGYIIYU2PNUIGEWWJGUAZ/>", >> with more details. >> 8. December 2017: The thread "Montenegrin Wikipedia (URGENT) >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/QKZNPMXWMTVS6BLTG2UMHPM7KM4MYPST/>", >> which came after the ISO 639-2 code was approved, but before it was added >> to ISO 639-3. >> >> And then there's the current thread. >> >> As we can see, I don't think there was ever a clear consensus to outright >> reject Montenegrin. There was a consensus for many years to wait until they >> potentially got an ISO 639 code, but when that finally happened, it happened >> in what I would describe as an "out-of-process way", which seemed perhaps >> "suspicious" on linguistic grounds. >> >> >> ons. 26. apr. 2023 kl. 13:28 skrev Kimberli Mäkäräinen >> <kimberli.makarai...@tuni.fi <mailto:kimberli.makarai...@tuni.fi>>: >> I think it would be a good idea to look more into this, preferably by asking >> linguists specializing in this language/these languages for their opinion. >> Having an ISO code is not a guarantee one way or another that they are >> separate languages and there are plenty of languages bundled under a single >> ISO code. >> >> mvh. K >> From: Jon Harald Søby <jhs...@gmail.com <mailto:jhs...@gmail.com>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2023 4:55 PM >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>> >> Subject: [Langcom] Re: Montenegrin - ineligible? >> >> Thanks for bringing it up, Amir. I promised a user a while back >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by#Montenegrin_Wiki> >> to bring up the Montenegrin issue again, but I haven't done anything about >> it yet. >> >> The last proper discussion we had about Montenegrin in this list was in this >> thread >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/X2CGBZ53VRY66Z4FSWJQBAPGOI3447GH/> >> from March 2018 (+ this reply >> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/ROKNRZMJDUCFDJFMXNXQ7XSC7NKMOTSG/> >> from Steven). Since then the language committee's composition has changed a >> bit, but I don't know if the situation wrt. Montenegrin recognition has >> changed – back then, the ISO 639-2 code for Montenegrin was quite new. But >> it could be good to hear some more opinions from within the committee before >> it's marked as ineligible again. >> >> tir. 25. apr. 2023 kl. 14:53 skrev MF-Warburg <mfwarb...@googlemail.com >> <mailto:mfwarb...@googlemail.com>>: >> I agree. >> >> Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il >> <mailto:amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il>> schrieb am Di., 25. Apr. 2023, 14:26: >> Hi, >> >> There's this old, contentious discussion: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montenegrin_5 >> >> I somehow thought that it's already marked as ineligible, but it isn't. I'd >> say that it should be marked as such. I've allowed localization in that >> language on translatewiki, similarly to en-gb, de-ch, etc., but it doesn't >> seem distinct enough for a whole Wikipedia. >> >> Does anyone disagree? If not, I'll be bold and mark it as ineligible in a >> week. >> >> -- >> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי >> http://aharoni.wordpress.com <http://aharoni.wordpress.com/> >> “We're living in pieces, >> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> >> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org> >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> >> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org> >> >> >> -- >> mvh >> Jon Harald Søby >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> >> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org> >> >> >> -- >> mvh >> Jon Harald Søby >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> >> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org> > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
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