Usually, the eligibility issue with a project is having ISO 639 codes, but that's not the main one in this discussion. It is the LPP(Language Proposal Policy) that defines eligibility, and the LPP explains:
The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a > more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and > different written forms of the same language. I think this can be judged on a linguistic basis, but I wonder if there is any data that can be judged objectively in linguistics. Sotiale <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> 바이러스가 없습니다.www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> 2023년 5월 3일 (수) 오후 5:20, Jan Wohlgemujth <spamfil...@janwonet.de>님이 작성: > Thank you for this nice summary. > Being a linguist myself, I would like to add one thing: > This question cannot be decided on linguistic grounds alone. The > situation of what once was called "Serbocroatian" _always_ has a > political dimension, too. The ISO codes were added probably due to > political considerations, too. And if "having an ISO code" is the > criterion, we should stick with that and not fight over whether that > code is linguistically justified or not. > If there is an active community, I would not be in favor of closing or > marking as ineligible. > > Best, > jan > > Am 2023-04-28 19:32, schrieb Jon Harald Søby: > > Montenegrin is probably the longest-standing issue we have in the > > language committee, and it has been requested numerous times through > > the years. In the beginning of the language committee, the nation of > > Montenegro itself was brand new, and Montenegrin had already been > > "lumped in" with Serbian for a long time (well, at least since the > > Serbo-Croatian code was split up). > > > > For a number of years, and this may be why LangCom's stance on > > Montenegrin has been the same, Montenegrin simply didn't meet one of > > the formal criteria: having an ISO 639 code. Then, in 2017, the > > language finally got its own code, but there was skepticism within the > > committee because the code was an ISO 639-2 code and not an ISO 639-3 > > code. The registrar for ISO 639-2 is the US Library of Congress, while > > the registrar for ISO 639-3 is SIL International. For all their > > faults, the latter is at least perceived to be more linguistic-minded, > > but many people saw the code coming to ISO 639-2 first as a sign that > > this was a _politically_ motivated decision, and not a > > _linguistically_ motivated one. A single language (and not a language > > group/macrolanguage) having a code in ISO 639-2 and not in ISO 639-3 > > was a highly unusual situation. > > > > However, it seems to me that the code was also added to ISO 639-3 > > later without much fanfare, though there isn't the usual paper trail > > on the ISO website: https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/cnr > > > > I have dug up previous discussions from the mailing lists that I would > > advice all language committee members to read through. Most of them > > are on the internal list, because the discussions happened before we > > reached consensus to have a public list. That means they are not > > available to external list observers, but committee members should > > have access. If you don't, reach out to me off-list, and I will help > > guide you through the process. > > > > 1. April 2007: The thread "Incubator and conditional approvals [4]". > > It is a very long thread, the parts most relevant for Montenegrin > > happen in mails 2–8, but the rest can be an interesting read too if > > you want more context. > > > > 2. March 2010: A single email "Request for Wikipedia in Montenegrin > > [5]" from our now-former member, User:Millosh, who is himself Serbian > > and therefore knows the local situation quite well. > > > > 3. December 2010: The thread "Montenegrin Wikipedia rejected [6]"; it > > was rejected because a pending request to add an ISO 639-3 code for > > Montenegrin was rejected (or not acted upon?) by the registering > > authority. > > 4. May 2011: The thread "Montenegrin 4 [7]"; rejected because of > > continued lack of ISO 639 code. > > 5. Also May 2011: The thread "orthographies and macro-languages [8]", > > giving some details about the relationship of the various > > Serbo-Croatian languages. > > 6. July 2011: Parts of the thread "Eligible status for Wikipedia in > > Tunisian Arabic [9]", which went a bit off that topic. > > > > 7. March 2017: The thread "Rejection of Wikipedia Prekmurian [10]", > > with more details. > > 8. December 2017: The thread "Montenegrin Wikipedia (URGENT) [11]", > > which came after the ISO 639-2 code was approved, but before it was > > added to ISO 639-3. > > > > And then there's the current thread. > > > > As we can see, I don't think there was ever a clear consensus to > > outright reject Montenegrin. There was a consensus for many years to > > wait until they potentially got an ISO 639 code, but when that finally > > happened, it happened in what I would describe as an "out-of-process > > way", which seemed perhaps "suspicious" on linguistic grounds. > > > > ons. 26. apr. 2023 kl. 13:28 skrev Kimberli Mäkäräinen > > <kimberli.makarai...@tuni.fi>: > > > >> I think it would be a good idea to look more into this, preferably > >> by asking linguists specializing in this language/these languages > >> for their opinion. Having an ISO code is not a guarantee one way or > >> another that they are separate languages and there are plenty of > >> languages bundled under a single ISO code. > >> > >> mvh. K > >> > >> ------------------------- > >> > >> From: Jon Harald Søby <jhs...@gmail.com> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2023 4:55 PM > >> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee > >> <langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> > >> Subject: [Langcom] Re: Montenegrin - ineligible? > >> > >> Thanks for bringing it up, Amir. I promised a user a while back [1] > >> to bring up the Montenegrin issue again, but I haven't done anything > >> about it yet. > >> > >> The last proper discussion we had about Montenegrin in this list was > >> in this thread [2] from March 2018 (+ this reply [3] from Steven). > >> Since then the language committee's composition has changed a bit, > >> but I don't know if the situation wrt. Montenegrin recognition has > >> changed – back then, the ISO 639-2 code for Montenegrin was quite > >> new. But it could be good to hear some more opinions from within the > >> committee before it's marked as ineligible again. > >> > >> tir. 25. apr. 2023 kl. 14:53 skrev MF-Warburg > >> <mfwarb...@googlemail.com>: > >> > >> I agree. > >> > >> Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> schrieb am Di., 25. > >> Apr. 2023, 14:26: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> There's this old, contentious discussion: > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montenegrin_5 > >> > >> > >> I somehow thought that it's already marked as ineligible, but it > >> isn't. I'd say that it should be marked as such. I've allowed > >> localization in that language on translatewiki, similarly to en-gb, > >> de-ch, etc., but it doesn't seem distinct enough for a whole > >> Wikipedia. > >> > >> Does anyone disagree? If not, I'll be bold and mark it as ineligible > >> in a week. > >> > >> -- > >> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע > >> אַהֲרוֹנִי > >> http://aharoni.wordpress.com > >> “We're living in pieces, > >> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > >> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > >> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > -- > > > > mvh > > Jon Harald Søby _______________________________________________ > > Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > -- > > > > mvh > > Jon Harald Søby > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jon_Harald_S%C3%B8by#Montenegrin_Wiki > > [2] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/X2CGBZ53VRY66Z4FSWJQBAPGOI3447GH/ > > [3] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/ROKNRZMJDUCFDJFMXNXQ7XSC7NKMOTSG/ > > [4] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/SHTWGL2X4P6CSPBNOYFZPWB3YXQHMXC4/ > > [5] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/Y353WE3DXCVYJJ2P2CUTMYQX5EUV5HOY/ > > [6] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/5IS5EGP5OGC52D6N3SXL5C4RML7PKG2R/ > > [7] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/BNCFO6RKUDCVMANTXWKTWY5QGQ35V6DV/ > > [8] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/7PCHCWS7ZXG2SBT26HBC2GQODTRBRMI4/ > > [9] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom-inter...@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/HVA4IZV2B6BZGHL6LNUMHATZ4QTF3LKB/ > > [10] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/J4RIHJQ2N7CTGYIIYU2PNUIGEWWJGUAZ/ > > [11] > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/langcom@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/QKZNPMXWMTVS6BLTG2UMHPM7KM4MYPST/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > > -- > Jan Wohlgemuth > Depok, Indonesia > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >
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