Hi!
I also use the set of shortcuts Tomas has proposed. I've also never had
inconsistencies with ctrl+i for insertion.
About promote/demote : yeah..... :/ ...I've also never used the shortcuts
because ctrl+{ nor ctrl+} work for me. (pyqt/tlcTk must use the ascii code
instead of the keyboard scancode I dunno )
Also - I never know what those do... There should be a label beside or
underneath in the menu that states "Promotes childs of the selected node"
or "Promotes the selected by demoting its children" to make it clear what
is promoted / demoted and what stays... as its ambivalent... always have
to try it , undo, realize I wanted the other one... (with a node being
selected, calling a command "promote" or "demote", only, has an unclear
meaning)
--
Félix
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 9:40:49 AM UTC-4, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> You are so right about this. I use Leo a lot, and as you say, I have
> worked out ways to work with it. But I don't know about many basic things
> because I haven't encountered the right bit of documentation. For example,
> I didn't know that <INSERT> would insert a new node.
>
> Because Leo can do so many things, and has so many commands, it's hard to
> know how to write useful HELP material. After one has used it for some
> time, it gets, as you say, hard to realize that a new user may not be able
> to find the things you do all the time. On top of that, documentation is
> spread around through various places.
>
> As for Leo unpredictably opening one file or another on startup, I have
> never experienced that. When I first started using Leo, it automatically
> created and opened workbook.leo, and since I leave it opened, it's always
> there. I first used it back in version 4.something and we're now at 6.2.x,
> but I think it still works that way. So something quirky is happened for
> you. Maybe someone else knows about it.
>
> If you haven't tried yet, configuration can be awful unless you find the
> exact string to add or change, and its location, because someone else
> published it somewhere.
>
> Despite these problems, I have found Leo so good to work with that I have
> been willing to live with its HELP and configuration weaknesses.
> Personally, I think that we - the Leo community - should take on a project
> to produce at least a good introductory HELP system. There are several
> documents, but as you have clearly told us, they aren't up to the job. The
> trouble is, the work would take a lot of time and effort, and isn't very
> interesting to most people. Of those who pass those filters, few of them
> are able to re-create what it's like to be a beginner, and to know how to
> organize the material to be highly helpful.
>
> These difficulties aren't unique to Leo, of course. You should hear my
> Significant Other complain about the LibreOffice word processor, since it
> sometimes works differently from Word. But Leo's outline machinery works
> so differently from what most people are used to that it may be harder for
> them to get started. If you can get past this newbie period, you may find
> (like I did) that Leo is worth it.
>
> Here are the commands that I use for basic Leo operations on the outline -
> I learned them from the Outline Menu:
>
> - For inserting a node, I always use <CNTRL-I>. This always puts the new
> node just under whichever node is already selected in the outline.
>
> - For moving a node, I always use <CTRL-u> for UP, CNTRL-d for DOWN.
>
> - For moving a node sideways, I use <CNTRL-r> for RIGHT (i.e., indenting
> it: making it a child node of the one above), <CNTRL-l> for LEFT.
>
> - For copying a node, I would use <CNTRL-SHIFT-C> but it doesn't work on
> my keyboard (a new wireless Logitech) so I resort to using the Outline menu.
>
> - For pasting a copied node, I use <CNTRL-SHIFT-V>, which my keyboard is
> willing to emit.
>
> On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:44:09 AM UTC-4, Vedran Čačić wrote:
>>
>> I really want to use Leo. I think the premise is great. However, I think
>> the interface has so many pitfalls for beginners, and since you all
>> probably use Leo for a long time, you don't really see it. I've been
>> struggling with it for a week already.
>>
>> First, when I start Leo, sometimes it opens the default document (with
>> the help), sometimes it opens the last opened one, and sometimes it just
>> opens new document. I still haven't been able to see when each of these
>> happens.
>>
>> Second, inserting nodes. Yes, I know I can press Insert. But whether it
>> will insert new root node or a child of already selected one (or even a
>> child of last node) seems simply random. And of course, according to
>> Murphy, it's always the action that I don't want. :-/
>>
>> Third, moving nodes. I still don't understand what Promote and Demote
>> does, not to mention that on my keyboard Ctrl+{ and Ctrl+} doesn't work (it
>> probably works only on US keyboard). I really think there should be an easy
>> way to move the nodes around, after all it seems like a main feature of Leo.
>>
>> Fourth, help is abysmal. None of the above things I could find in help.
>> Example: I press F1, and get (it's not even copy-pasteable?!):
>>
>> Alt-0 hide this message (ok, that's nice to know)
>> To learn about <Alt-X> commands... sorry, I don't know whether I want to
>> learn about <Alt-X> commands. I don't know what <Alt-X> command _is_,
>> anyway. I just want to move a node under another one.
>> To get a list of help topics... great, I think. I type <Alt-X>help-<tab>,
>> and get a list with only three items, none of which is relevant. Only afer
>> a long time, I notice the scrollbar - the contrast is almost nonexistent.
>> :-/ And yes, I find help-for-drag-and-drop, click on it, and... nothing
>> happens. Oh, I have to type it again? Ok, but why? Couldn't this work the
>> same way as the outline?
>>
>> And after all that, I get (again, un-copy-pasteable) "you may drag
>> nodes". Yes, I know I can drag them, that's the first thing I tried. The
>> problem is, it almost never works. Sometimes I get a child of the node I
>> dragged to, sometimes I get its sibling. And sometimes it doesn't work at
>> all. The nodes just stay where they are.
>>
>> Other help options are the same as "Alt-X" above... they pressupose a lot
>> of knowledge about Leo I don't already have. For example, how to find about
>> inserting nodes? It's not mentioned anywhere that I see. I got lucky with
>> Insert key, but as can be seen above, I'm still not sure what exactly it
>> does.
>>
>> If you really want Leo to be used by new users, you have to work on this.
>> Maybe just help needs to be reworked, now it seems like a reference. Maybe
>> my mindset is wrong... I have never really used Emacs, and the interface is
>> obviously based on it. :-/
>>
>
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