On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 10:28:17 AM UTC-4, Félix wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> I also use the set of shortcuts Tomas has proposed. I've also never had
> inconsistencies with ctrl+i for insertion.
>
> About promote/demote : yeah..... :/ ...I've also never used the shortcuts
> because ctrl+{ nor ctrl+} dont work for me. (pyqt/tlcTk must use the ascii
> code instead of the keyboard scancode I dunno )
>
Same here - I didn't include their shortcuts because I simply don't use
them. <CNTRL-r> and <CNTRL-l> do the job well, and they seem mnemonic for
me personally.
> Also - I never know what those do... There should be a label beside or
> underneath in the menu that states "Promotes childs of the selected node"
> or "Promotes the selected by demoting its children" to make it clear what
> is promoted / demoted and what stays... as its ambivalent... always have
> to try it , undo, realize I wanted the other one... (with a node being
> selected, calling a command "promote" or "demote", only, has an unclear
> meaning)
> --
> Félix
>
> EDIT: TYPO
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 9:40:49 AM UTC-4, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>> You are so right about this. I use Leo a lot, and as you say, I have
>> worked out ways to work with it. But I don't know about many basic things
>> because I haven't encountered the right bit of documentation. For example,
>> I didn't know that <INSERT> would insert a new node.
>>
>> Because Leo can do so many things, and has so many commands, it's hard to
>> know how to write useful HELP material. After one has used it for some
>> time, it gets, as you say, hard to realize that a new user may not be able
>> to find the things you do all the time. On top of that, documentation is
>> spread around through various places.
>>
>> As for Leo unpredictably opening one file or another on startup, I have
>> never experienced that. When I first started using Leo, it automatically
>> created and opened workbook.leo, and since I leave it opened, it's always
>> there. I first used it back in version 4.something and we're now at 6.2.x,
>> but I think it still works that way. So something quirky is happened for
>> you. Maybe someone else knows about it.
>>
>> If you haven't tried yet, configuration can be awful unless you find the
>> exact string to add or change, and its location, because someone else
>> published it somewhere.
>>
>> Despite these problems, I have found Leo so good to work with that I have
>> been willing to live with its HELP and configuration weaknesses.
>> Personally, I think that we - the Leo community - should take on a project
>> to produce at least a good introductory HELP system. There are several
>> documents, but as you have clearly told us, they aren't up to the job. The
>> trouble is, the work would take a lot of time and effort, and isn't very
>> interesting to most people. Of those who pass those filters, few of them
>> are able to re-create what it's like to be a beginner, and to know how to
>> organize the material to be highly helpful.
>>
>> These difficulties aren't unique to Leo, of course. You should hear my
>> Significant Other complain about the LibreOffice word processor, since it
>> sometimes works differently from Word. But Leo's outline machinery works
>> so differently from what most people are used to that it may be harder for
>> them to get started. If you can get past this newbie period, you may find
>> (like I did) that Leo is worth it.
>>
>> Here are the commands that I use for basic Leo operations on the outline
>> - I learned them from the Outline Menu:
>>
>> - For inserting a node, I always use <CNTRL-I>. This always puts the new
>> node just under whichever node is already selected in the outline.
>>
>> - For moving a node, I always use <CTRL-u> for UP, CNTRL-d for DOWN.
>>
>> - For moving a node sideways, I use <CNTRL-r> for RIGHT (i.e., indenting
>> it: making it a child node of the one above), <CNTRL-l> for LEFT.
>>
>> - For copying a node, I would use <CNTRL-SHIFT-C> but it doesn't work on
>> my keyboard (a new wireless Logitech) so I resort to using the Outline menu.
>>
>> - For pasting a copied node, I use <CNTRL-SHIFT-V>, which my keyboard is
>> willing to emit.
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:44:09 AM UTC-4, Vedran Čačić wrote:
>>>
>>> I really want to use Leo. I think the premise is great. However, I think
>>> the interface has so many pitfalls for beginners, and since you all
>>> probably use Leo for a long time, you don't really see it. I've been
>>> struggling with it for a week already.
>>>
>>> First, when I start Leo, sometimes it opens the default document (with
>>> the help), sometimes it opens the last opened one, and sometimes it just
>>> opens new document. I still haven't been able to see when each of these
>>> happens.
>>>
>>> Second, inserting nodes. Yes, I know I can press Insert. But whether it
>>> will insert new root node or a child of already selected one (or even a
>>> child of last node) seems simply random. And of course, according to
>>> Murphy, it's always the action that I don't want. :-/
>>>
>>> Third, moving nodes. I still don't understand what Promote and Demote
>>> does, not to mention that on my keyboard Ctrl+{ and Ctrl+} doesn't work (it
>>> probably works only on US keyboard). I really think there should be an easy
>>> way to move the nodes around, after all it seems like a main feature of Leo.
>>>
>>> Fourth, help is abysmal. None of the above things I could find in help.
>>> Example: I press F1, and get (it's not even copy-pasteable?!):
>>>
>>> Alt-0 hide this message (ok, that's nice to know)
>>> To learn about <Alt-X> commands... sorry, I don't know whether I want to
>>> learn about <Alt-X> commands. I don't know what <Alt-X> command _is_,
>>> anyway. I just want to move a node under another one.
>>> To get a list of help topics... great, I think. I type
>>> <Alt-X>help-<tab>, and get a list with only three items, none of which is
>>> relevant. Only afer a long time, I notice the scrollbar - the contrast is
>>> almost nonexistent. :-/ And yes, I find help-for-drag-and-drop, click on
>>> it, and... nothing happens. Oh, I have to type it again? Ok, but why?
>>> Couldn't this work the same way as the outline?
>>>
>>> And after all that, I get (again, un-copy-pasteable) "you may drag
>>> nodes". Yes, I know I can drag them, that's the first thing I tried. The
>>> problem is, it almost never works. Sometimes I get a child of the node I
>>> dragged to, sometimes I get its sibling. And sometimes it doesn't work at
>>> all. The nodes just stay where they are.
>>>
>>> Other help options are the same as "Alt-X" above... they pressupose a
>>> lot of knowledge about Leo I don't already have. For example, how to find
>>> about inserting nodes? It's not mentioned anywhere that I see. I got lucky
>>> with Insert key, but as can be seen above, I'm still not sure what exactly
>>> it does.
>>>
>>> If you really want Leo to be used by new users, you have to work on
>>> this. Maybe just help needs to be reworked, now it seems like a reference.
>>> Maybe my mindset is wrong... I have never really used Emacs, and the
>>> interface is obviously based on it. :-/
>>>
>>
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