----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:13 PM Subject: [Libertarian] Re: Will Christian Conservatives blow it now?
> --- In [email protected], "David Macko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> We have explored this subject quite thoroughly. Some of us take the > only logical scientific position that human life begins at conception > and therefore is entitled to the equal rights of all humans. Your side > takes a mystical position that human life begins at some other time, > arbitrarily set, and therefore can be exterminated. >> >> For life and liberty, >> David Macko > > > Of course, you would say the exact opposite of the truth. In reality > I take the scientific position that a fetus IS a parasite and that it > lives within the body of a human being. There is no scientific > evidence what-so-ever to back the laughable claim that HUMAN life > begins at conception. A zygote is not a human, and only the most > foolish of people would claim such. An Acorn is not an oak tree. The biological definition of parasite, the only objective one, always defines a parasite as being of a different species than the host. Therefore, unless you claim that the fetus is of a different species than its mother your argument for its being a parasite is invalid. David Macko > > I don't take the emotion-filled, and mystical argument that claims a > fetus has a "soul". That is left to those claiming to be pro-life but > who only respect those not yet alive, over those who are already alive. It has 46 chromosomes. It is human. DM > > Rather than to believe in mystical nonsense and ludicrous claims like > those I've mentioned, I stick to scientific facts and to the > libertarian position that we have SOLE DOMINION over our own body and > all of the organisms within that body. To claim otherwise is to say a > tapeworm has more rights than its host. It's to claim that others are > entitled to take that which is ours for thier own percieved needs. > > So someone is either a scientific realist and a libertarian like > myself, you're a socialist believer in mysticism like you. > > > > > >> > >> > All government at any level derives its limited powers from the >> > consent of the governed, and as such can not have any powers that we >> > as individuals don't have to grant to it. If we were on an island >> > without a government, neither you, nor me, nor anyone else on the >> > island would have any authority to tell a woman whether or not she may >> > or may not have an abortion. None of us has any say in what she does >> > or doesn't do with her own body or any organisms within that body. It >> > doesn't matter if we personally consider a fetus to be a person or >> > not. She alone has SOLE DOMINION over everything in her body whether >> > it's her own organs, a tapeworm, a germ, or a fetus. Nothing inside >> > the body of a human being has any rights regardless of what that >> > organism happens to be. >> > >> > If you consider abortion to be murder, you are free not to get one, >> > but neither you, nor the combined population of the planet earth other >> > than the pregnant woman, has any legitimate say in whether or not she >> > has an abortion or the legitimate authority to punish her for > having one. >> > >> > I don't think you should be forced to pay for anyone's abortion, but >> > neither do you have any say in whether or not they have one. The >> > position of the LP is that only the pregnant woman, and nobody else, >> > decides the appropriateness of having an abortion. In otherwords >> > Libertarians are pro-choice. It's not just the platform, it's the >> > default position in all libertarian philosophy. >> > >> > So yes, I do think the state can punish murder. But this has nothing >> > to do with abortion. They are not the same thing and they never will >> > be. They aren't related in the slightest. And if you "think" >> > abortion is murder, that still doesn't give you any authority or right >> > to stop them or punish them. Any claims to the contrary are not >> > libertarian because they violate the SOLE DOMINION clause of our > pledge. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In [email protected], "David Macko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I agree with you that the fedgov has no Constitutional authority >> >> regarding abortion. >> >> However, unless you are an anarchist, you should agree that state >> >> governments have the authority to punish murder. Some of us think >> >> murders should be punished no matter where they occur, including >> >> the womb of the victim's mother. >> >> >> >> For life and liberty, >> >> David Macko >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> To: <[email protected]> >> >> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 2:28 PM >> >> Subject: [Libertarian] Re: Will Christian Conservatives blow it now? >> >> >> >> >> >> > Abortion is a good issue to use because it displays whether someone >> >> > will allow emotion to get in the way of their judgement and their >> >> > dedication to the U.S. Constitution and the limitation within it on >> >> > the powers of the U.S. Government. The Federal government has >> >> > absolutely no say in the matter. In fact, neither do the states. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Will Christian Conservatives blow it now? >> >> >> >> >> >> Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's retirement from the Supreme Court >> >> > heightened >> >> >> the buzz across America. Every news report in the first two hours >> >> > since the >> >> >> announcement linked O'Connor's resignation with the Abortion > Issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> Let's keep the bigger picture in focus. Abortion should not > be the >> >> > only >> >> >> legal pivot point in the land of the free. A U. S. Supreme Court >> >> > Justice must >> >> >> rule on many more cases than an abortion case that may reach the >> >> > Court some year. >> >> >> >> >> >> O'Connor in retrospective has been an influential voice for > liberty, >> >> > limiting >> >> >> the federal government grabbing power. >> >> >> >> >> >> O'Connor wrote the most quoted dissent in the recent eminent > domain >> >> > case >> >> >> (Kelo v. New London). O'Connor's dissent in the medical marijuana >> >> > case, >> >> >> empowering the feds' monolithic control of states' medical >> >> > decision-making, will be >> >> >> quoted in the future. >> >> >> >> >> >> In the meantime, the media relentlessly reports only that O'Connor >> >> > was a >> >> >> swing vote on abortion -- and that President Bush now has the > chance >> >> > to appoint a >> >> >> pro-life Justice. No doubt Christian conservatives support that >> >> > selective >> >> >> search criterion. >> >> >> >> >> >> But, how many of Christians understand that this is not a case of >> >> > being able >> >> >> to replace a "bad" Justice with a "good" Justice. The fact > is, that >> >> > for those >> >> >> who believe in limited federal powers and maximum freedom, > O'Connor >> >> > has been >> >> >> a fair and wise Justice. >> >> >> >> >> >> But, if the abortion issue continues to be the major focus of the >> >> >> Liberal-Conservative debate, then we may lose focus on the greater >> >> > legal >> >> >> issues. This obsession means we may get a Justice far less >> >> > liberty-minded, without >> >> >> time-tested, core Constitutional convictions, needed to sustain >> > debate. >> >> >> [Think Harriet Miers.] >> >> >> >> >> >> So, while obsessing on abortion, Christian conservatives may > cut off >> >> > their >> >> >> noses to spite their proud faces for many years, even decades to >> >> > come. They may >> >> >> be so pre-occupied with their present, single-issue focus that > they >> >> > may end up >> >> >> sacrificing more than 30 years of hard fought for freedoms in the >> >> > culture >> >> >> war. >> >> >> >> >> >> Failure to focus on the long-term timeline now, reminds us of the >> >> >> metaphorically foolish mother, who throws the baby out with > the bath >> >> > water, because she >> >> >> is fixated on expediency and wants a clean house, right now. >> >> > Forgetting future >> >> >> decades would be a supreme (court) irony for those who are >> > planning for >> >> >> Eternity. >> >> >> >> >> >> Are Christian conservatives resigning on this issue prematurely? >> >> >> >> >> >> WRF ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Fair play? Video games influencing politics. 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