Anna: "I must say that there is no free will, period" Well, if you don't believe free will exists then discussion of what is the 'right/wrong' thing to do is mote, since no individual can thus be held acountable for such 'morality'
Of course I disagree with this view of impotent individual NON-personhood! Please actually read and contemplate what I wrote addressing how to accomadate much of the 'subjectivity' about 'morals' in What's at the Heart of What Libertarians are Selling? at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/30419 -Terry Liberty Parker --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Terry, are you talking about free will? > > Morals are human invention which serve to protect oneself from a possible harm from others. > They cannot be objective as they serve the subjective self preservation agenda. When I kill an ant, I violate ant's rights, but preserve mine. > Morals are always selfish. > There is no free Will outside an individual ability to Agree or to Negate a choice offered by the circumstances. Of course, even then we may not be able to change anything, but at least we can make a 'moral' choice. > Since it is illogical to claim a limited free will, I must say that there is no free will, period. > Nevertheless, in physical universe altruism seems to be well established. When electrons wait in line to absorb a photon and jump a level, nobody is pushing, but sometimes a place is offered to a more needy electron. For some reason, jumping up a level and becoming "alive" is important in microworld of particles. > So, perhaps NO HARM law should embrace all life, born and unborn. But I doubt that humans are advanced enough to understand it, or practice. > This would then require that we show respect for animals and plants and stop killing them. > Since I believe that violence is in a great measure caused by our carnivorous habits, I sure am for it. But I am only one of the very few people who think like this. > Anna > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terry L Parker > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:13 PM > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: PERSONHOOD: Abortion & beyond > > > Anna, better than what; conscious volition? > > If by saying the word 'person' we are identifying an entity > with the property of rights/duties capability, how can you > leave out conscious volition and still have moral accountability > > Do you not believe that it is required for free moral agency? > > > -Terry Liberty Parker > Please see what I wrote in > 'Your Freedom and the Rights of Others' > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/22990 > > > > --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Terry, a better defintion is that personality is an individual map > of consciousness. > > Anna > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Terry L Parker > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 1:17 PM > > Subject: [Libertarian] PERSONHOOD: Abortion & beyond > > > > > > It's intellectually and spiritually lazy > > to default to a comfortable prejudice > > shared by one's associates! > > > > The term 'personhood' refers to the 'property' > > of being able to have rights & duties (obligations) > > Human Beings are human lifeforms with 'personhood' > > for example. > > > > Historically, we've been too quick to discount > > personhood when doing so was immoral; > > for example, slavery (person discounted to > > another person's property) Determination > > of 'personhood' impacts not only the > > contemporary human abortion issue but also > > the morality of other life form encounters to come. > > > > The intellectual & spiritual 'homework' > > yet to be done by many, is to develop > > a working criteria for who (or what) > > gets to be considered a person AND why. > > If you want that criteria to be > > generally acknowledged it has to be > > as rational and objective as possible. > > > > Here are *my* 'tentative' COMBINED criteria for > > who or what gets to be regarded as a person: > > > > sentience- ability to consider essential > > information about one's environment > > (surroundings, situation and so on) > > > > agency- power to act in that environment > > > > conscious volition- free will to intervene between > > stimulus and response by making meaningful choices; > > without which one can not be 'responsible' for > > one's actions that interface with other persons > > > > Imo, 'personhood' is about individual sovereigns > > (whose 'domains' are their own bodies and > > justly held possessions) being free moral agents; > > which still leaves room for acts of compassion :) > > > > Domains http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/30419 > > > > Morals http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/37899 > > > > > > There are three essential areas of moral concern about human > abortion: > > > > 1. Personhood- At what point do rights and obligations accrue > > to the developing individual? > > > > The spectrum of opinion is from the moment of conception > > (spiritual, before physical zygote) thru physical gestation > > to birth and a few years beyond (human infanticide is actually > > NOT regarded as murder in some societies) > > > > 2. Obligation- If the developing individual is deemed a 'person' > > what, if any, duty to that person exists, to provide support? > > > > No person has an 'automatic' claim on the resources of another > > person to provide them with support. But, did voluntary action > > by the 'host' person create an obligation to the 'dependent' > person? > > > > 3. Fatal Eviction- If the 'host' person has a right to deny > > support to the 'dependent' person, does the 'host' person's > > right to 'evict' the 'dependent' person include doing so in > > such a way that is fatal to said dependent? > > > > People of sincere conscience can be found on all sides of these > > three concerns. > > > > > > 'The unexamined life is not worth living' > > Socrates, in Plato, Dialogues, Apology > > Greek philosopher in Athens (469 BC - 399 BC) > > at http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24198.html > > > > Please also enter the word consciousness at http://www.Google.com > > > > > > -Terry Liberty Parker > > see: 'Your Freedom and the Rigths of Others' > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/22990 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS E government Libertarian E government strategy > > Libertarian party E government procurement > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > ---------- > > YAHOO! 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