Jon, how did you conclude that I called for NO govt? GOVERNMENT: that agency which is exercising the greatest ability for enforcing compliance to its aims in a given arena (hint: it's not always a formal state)
Also, I think that if we're not able to go into general society and tell any person that it's NOT 'ok' to physically attack an innocent person, we should retire our mouths :) The core libertarian principle is not some radical unknown, untried concept; it's the basis for civilized society throughout history and in our world today. We're only insisting that people be more consistent about the premise they (VIRTUALLY ALL), consciously or unconsciously, already use. ACTUAL sociopaths are a relative small percent of the population. Here's what I've written before: Without consistency to a 'physical agression truce' the common ground for 'liberty & justice for all' in the material world just vanishes! While MOST people, MOST of the time, on MOST issues, consciously or not, will abide by this 'truce' many seek 'exceptions' for their own causes. So, they will claim that such a 'commonality' doesn't exist; and that those who say otherwise are being absurd. Of course, people, including these 'exceptors' would NOT be able to walk out their door each day if there was no effective physical aggression truce already working. But, that observation seems not to disuade these exceptors from attempting to con other people about the matter. The truth is, that it is CONSISTENCY to this 'physical aggression truce' (aka NAP 'non aggression principle, ZAP 'zero aggression principle' and so on) which protects the 'self-ownership' autonomy of virtually all persons. Most people DO seem to inherently understand and usually apply the needed reciprocity; even if they don't know how to spell that word, let alone consciously define it. This, in fact, is the underlying principle for UNIVERSAL libertarianism; aka 'liberty & justice for ALL' So, a question to would be 'exceptors' is: what makes you think you have the right to initiate, or do a credible threat to initiate, physical force against the person or justly held possessions of another? PleaseSee: What's at the Heart of What Libertarians are Selling? at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/30419 -Terry Liberty Parker http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian --- In [email protected], Jon Roland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." (James > Madison, Federalist 51, Feb. 6, 1788) You are calling for nothing less > than a general change in human nature, with no one omitted from the > change. The people who would accept your argument are the ones who don't > need it, and are not the problem. What you need to do is find a way to > reform all the recalcitrant criminals and predators, and do so reliably > and pro-actively. Nor is t enough to tell people to maintain the truce > until someone else violates it, if the available means to violate it > would render one unable to respond. Sometimes one has to deter or > prevent assaults, and to use force to do that. > There is such a thing as righteous or just violence, even the initiation > of it in some circumstances. Reality is far too complex to admit of > simple rules of conduct. Rules, like theories, need to be "as simple as > possible, but no simpler". (Einstein) Where humans are concerned, that > is not at all simple, but vastly complex, involving thousands or > millions of factors, all interacting in complex feedback loops. Indeed, > so complex as to be beyond the cognitive capacity of humans to > adequately comprehend, and further complicated by the lack of complete > and accurate information about the situation. > > -- Jon > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Our efforts depend on donations from people like you. Directions > for donors are at http://www.constitution.org/whatucando.htm > Constitution Society 7793 Burnet Road #37, Austin, TX 78757 > 512/374-9585 www.constitution.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Get your free digital certificate from http://www.thawte.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
