The fact that Jefferson owned slaves is not "grossly overblown." It is a serious issue and an inconsistent application of his own philosophies that should not be soft-pedaled or excused. Further, his love of Sally Hemings (not an unusual practice for slave-owners) does not excuse his ownership and control of the lives of other human beings. That was not the point being made. He was clearly wrong in that practice, regardless of the reason. The point being made earlier in this thread is that this clear and egregious inconsistency is not a good reason to invalidate his significant contributions in the realm of liberty advocacy. In short, his ownership of slaves was wrong - really, really wrong and inexcusable - but it doesn't make his more libertarian views invalid.
__________________________________________________________________ James Landrith [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: 703-593-2065 * fax: 760-875-8547 AIM: jlnales * ICQ: 148600159 MSN and Yahoo! Messenger: jlandrith Taking the Gloves Off - http://www.jameslandrith.com The Multiracial Activist - http://www.multiracial.com The Abolitionist Examiner - http://www.multiracial.com/abolitionist/ __________________________________________________________________ > I agree completely with Paul here. The whole "Jefferson owned > slaves" argument is grossly overblown. Paul is completely right. > He owned slaves cause if he let them free they would have been > killed. But additionally, fact is he was in love with one of > his "slaves" Sally Hemming. > > INSIGHT Magazine once showed a photo of Jefferson's ancestors black > and white. It was scary. They all looked just like him. > > > --- In [email protected], "Paul" wrote: > > > > How can anyone argue that the man who created the Declaration of > > Independence is anything other than libertarian in his politics? > > By mentioning his slaves? He didn't support slavery and treated > his slaves more like friends. The only reason he kept them (which > he inherited and didn't purchase) was because if he set them free, > they'd be killed immediately or captured and re-enslaved by someone > else. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "uncoolrabbit" > > wrote: > > > > > > How do you argue for Thomas Jefferson as a libertarian? > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Paul" wrote: > > > > > > > > Since the beginning, libertarianism has ALWAYS been about > > > > non-aggression and military non-interventionism. It has been > so > > > since > > > > long before there any of those mentioned by Eric were born or > even > > > > thought of. I don't know of anyone who said Nolan was > responsible > > > for > > > > the "libertarian movement", though he was responsible for > the > > > creation > > > > of the LP and the "world's smallest political quiz) aka the > NOLAN > > > > chart (which is nothing more than an outreach tool to find > those > > > who > > > > lean toward libertarianism). Libertarians have been around > for > > > more > > > > than 1000 years, and they have never ever ever advocted wars > > > against > > > > those who have not attacked us, or the use of force other than > in > > > your > > > > own defense. In fact many suggested we not return force when > > > > attacked, which is further than I'd go. > > > > > > > > One could argue that Jesus of Nazareth, Buddha, Ghandi, Thomas > > > > Aquinas, John Locke, Alexis De Toqueville, Thomas Jefferson, > and > > > > others were libertarian in their philosophy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Eric Dondero > Rittberg" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > [ModeratorNote: the split is between those advocating > > > > > USA govt interventionism abroad vs those opposed. > > > > > > > > > > ACTUAL 'defense' is of course supported by libertarianism. > > > > > > > > > > There is a difference of opinion on what constitutes > > > > > CREDIBLE as 'threat' AND what is appropriate as response. > > > > > > > > > > Additionally, SOME opponents of interventionism are also > > > > > advocates of 'pacifism' > > > > > > > > > > The historical break with Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) > > > > > was over USA military interventionism; specifically, at that > > > > > time, Vietnam. Traditional 'YAFers' ('Trads') being for > > > > > continuing the Vietnam intervention vs libertarian 'YAFers' > > > > > ('Libs') being against continuing the Vietnam intervention. > > > > > > > > > > ALL supported 'defense' but opinions differed on Vietnam. > > > > > > > > > > -TLP ] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steven, your premise "a libertarian case for war" is > not > > > correct. > > > > > You are presuming that libertarianism is consistent with > > > pacifism, > > > > > which it most certainly not. > > > > > > > > > > A brief history lesson. Despite common misconception David > > > Nolan > > > > > DID NOT found the modern libertarian movement. That > > > distinction, if > > > > > it goes to any one single individual, goes to Dana > Rohrabacher > > > who > > > > > headed the Libertarian Caucus of YAF in the critical years > of > > > 1966- > > > > > 70. > > > > > > > > > > Rohrabacher, as you are probably aware, is Pro-Defense, like > his > > > > > pals Bob Poole and Jack Wheeler (two other individuals > prominent > > > in > > > > > the very early libertarian movement). > > > > > > > > > > When the LP was founded in Dec. 1971, and in the first > couple > > > years, > > > > > libertarians were divided on foreign policy issues. Dr. > John > > > > > Hospers, the LP's first Presidential candidate, could be > > > described > > > > > much more in the Pro-Defense libertarian camp, than the > Pacifist > > > > > side. > > > > > > > > > > It was not until 1974/75, when Rothbard and Raimondo and the > > > Radical > > > > > Caucus took control of the LP's platform committee was > the "Anti- > > > War > > > > > position" hoisted upon the LP in dramatic fashion. > > > > > > > > > > Even long afterwards a Libertarian Defense Caucus headed by > Mike > > > > > Dunn, and including Poole, Cliff Thies, and many other > prominent > > > > > libertarians fought the Radical Caucus until the mid 1980s. > > > > > > > > > > Your premise is off. If there is any "original" > or "official" > > > > > libertarian foreign policy position it is that more closely > > > aligned > > > > > with Rohrabacher rather than Rothbard/Raimondo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "steven linnabary" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Geof Gibson" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I totally agree we do not need religious intolerance in > civil > > > > > > > conversation nor in our politics. That is why I will > > > criticize > > > > > the > > > > > > > purveyors of Christian fascism as well as Islamofascism > as > > > well > > > > > as > > > > > > > Libertarian intolerance. They are all of the same > breed. > > > When > > > > > we > > > > > > > hate those with whom we disagree it invariably leads to > > > violence. > > > > > > > This is precisely why I will point it out from all > corners. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Libertarian intolerance??? > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that nothing I've said is considered to > be > > > > > intolerant to > > > > > > the point of violence (or the agitation thereof). > > > > > > > > > > > > I am, however, proudly intolerant of stupid wars (though > not > > > to > > > > > the point of > > > > > > aggression). I think that makes me consistent. > > > > > > > > > > > > OTOH, there are several people on this list who have > failed to > > > > > make the > > > > > > libertarian case for any of our stupid wars. I'm not > saying > > > it > > > > > can't be > > > > > > done. I've seen a lot of my theories blown to hell with a > > > good > > > > > libertarian > > > > > > argument (for and against copyright and patent laws, for > and > > > > > against slave > > > > > > reparations, etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > PEACE > > > > > > Steven R. Linnabary, Treasurer > > > > > > Franklin County Libertarian Party > > > > > > (614) 891-8841 > > > > > > P.O.Box#115; Blacklick, OH 43004-0115 > > > > > > > > > > > > "When you make peaceful revolution impossible, you make > > > violent > > > > > revolution > > > > > > inevitable" John F. Kennedy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
