> second before. We are BORN with certain unalienable rights
including
> life.
How do we determined that birth is the exact moment we obtain these
rights and not one second before? With all of the emphasis science
has placed on when we are not considered a "person" and, according to
you, have no rights whatsoever, then what criteria does birth meet
that a child in the process of being born does not have?
--- In [email protected], "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 1. Getting an abortion is not an act of aggression against anyone.
>
> 2. Getting an abortion does not infringe upon the rights of anyone.
>
> 3. There is no argument. Birth is when we get rights and not one
> second before. We are BORN with certain unalienable rights
including
> life.
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "wgilbert02" <buckygilbert@>
wrote:
> >
> > Good reply Tom.
> >
> > >>You
> > > smoke three packs of cigarettes a day for 30 years, you
contract
> > lung
> > > cancer ... does "accepting the consequences" mean that you are
not
> > > free to seek treatment for that cancer?
> >
> > No, because seeking treatment for cancer is not an act of
aggression
> > towards anyone.
> >
> > > > Likewise, by
> > > > having intercourse one consents to the possible consequences
of
> > such
> > > > actions, whether they desire children or not.
> > >
> > > Even leaving aside rape, etc., there are many possible
consequences
> > to
> > > sexual intercourse. Does "accepting the consequences" mean
refusing
> > to
> > > use penicillin if one contracts syphilis?
> >
> > Again, the use of penicilin does not infringe upon the rights of
any
> > other person.
> >
> > I'm not going to argue whether a zygote/embryo/fetus is a person,
> > rather it is a potential human life that will, under most
> > circumstances, become a fully functioning "person." The argument
over
> > when life begins is, to myself, a bit of an arbitrary debate
because
> > it can also be turned in the opposite direction. Rather than
arguing
> > whether a zygot is a person, a fetus is a person, etc., one
could
> > take that logic to its other extreme and argue about what age we
> > become human. If one is not a "person" 10 minutes before birth
and
> > has no rights, what grants it personhood 10 minutes later, a week
> > later, or even a month or year later. Should science not
determine
> > an age whereby we become "persons" since they clearly have
> > established when we are not to be considered human? Perhaps we
should
> > set an age limit, ahhh eighteen? Twentyone? Maybe a test whereby
we
> > can determine whether one has reached the mental and physical
> > capabilities of a "person." Whatever we decide, it should
therefore
> > be completely legal to end any lifeform that has not yet become
> > a "person." If it is not an initiation of force to end the life a
> > fetus at any age, then why should we arbitrarily declare that
after
> > birth it is an initiation of force.
> >
> > I know that all sounds far fetched but if we are going to set
such
> > strict standards for determining when a zygote/embryo/fetus is to
> > actually be considered a living "person" then we must also extend
> > that logic to birth and therafter. Now how do you prove that a
> > newborn is a "person" with rights, when moments before it had no
> > rights and was not a person. What criteria should we establish
to
> > determine this.
> >
> > Very interesting debate. Thanks for the reply and I hope to hear
from
> > you again soon.
> >
> > Bucky
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Thomas L. Knapp"
> > <thomaslknapp@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bucky,
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > >
> > > > How is a pregnant woman a non-consentual other? If I smoke 3
> > packs
> > > > of cigaretts a day for 30 years knowing full well of the
dangers,
> > I
> > > > have chosen to accept the consequences of such actions.
> > >
> > > By which, presumably, you mean the possibility that you will
> > contract
> > > cancer. And that's true enough ... but take it beyond that
point.
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > One of the consequences of sexual intercourse is, indeed,
possible
> > > pregnancy. The pro-life argument is that one of the options
> > > (abortion) for addressing that possible consequence is immoral.
In
> > > particular, the pro-life _libertarian_ argument is that
resorting to
> > > that option is an initiation of force.
> > >
> > > But the mere fact that pregnancy is a possible consequence of
sexual
> > > intercourse is not sufficient to sustain that argument. In
order to
> > > sustain it, at least two things must be demonstrated:
> > >
> > > 1) That the zygote/embryo/fetus is a "person" with rights; and
> > >
> > > 2) That abortion violates one or more of those rights.
> > >
> > > Demonstrating those two things is a pretty tall order, but
that's
> > the
> > > task for anyone attempting to make a _libertarian_ pro-life
> > argument.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Tom Knapp
> > >
> >
>
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