If someone else organizes something and you support it, that’s great. That in no way means that the supporter was the leader.
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:06 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1][email protected]> wrote: Weird. Danny: >> I have no doubt RMS was supportive. On March 26, 2021 6:02:52 PM UTC, Danny Spitzberg <[2][email protected]> wrote: >Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion yet >again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a union >because RMS was causing harm and dysfunction, and at best, RMS went along >and accepted it as a net positive state of affairs. > >On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:00 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[3][email protected]> wrote: > >> So basically some people are claiming RMS helped to set up a union to >> protect people from himself and that's one reason not to support RMS. >> >> You guys are making me support him more. >> >> On March 26, 2021 5:51:57 PM UTC, Thomas Lord <[4][email protected]> wrote: >> >"It is union to try to protect people from RMS. / That's it. That's the >> >reason." >> > >> > As a matter of history that is simply and purely a lie. >> > >> >I don't see any of that kind of complaint, at this point, as anything >> >less or more than direct attempts to sabotage the FSF, the FSM, and GNU. >> > It has no place here. You are free not to associate with the FSF >> >and you should, it would seem, take that option. >> > >> >-t >> > >> >On 2021-03-26 10:46, Danny Spitzberg wrote: >> > >> >> A union certainly helped everyone set and keep healthy boundaries. I >> have no doubt RMS was supportive. Like Paul suggested, a set of community >> agreements or a code of conduct or a contributor covenant or whatever is >> generally a good thing. >> >> >> >> But as for the reason why staff organized the union -- you may call it >> silly, but here is the testimony in their own words: >> >> >> >> " I think that many people do not know that the FSF is a union shop, or >> why. >> >> >> >> It is union to try to protect people from RMS. >> >> >> >> That's it. That's the reason. >> >> >> >> Knowing some of the story about how this came to be, it really informed >> my own thinking about what a union can do, and can't do. >> >> >> >> Unionizing provided protections and standard benefits (like berievement >> leave) for workers at FSF. It could not remove RMS from a position of >> power. >> >> >> >> I think the issue for workers at the time was that RMS held unchecked >> authority. It did not matter that there was a board of FSF: you could not >> tell RMS what to do. >> >> >> >> Using the power that the law provides to force negotiations on a >> written contract was the only option. >> >> >> >> That is just... Not normal. Right?" >> >> >> >> From >> >> [5]https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:40 AM Thomas Lord <[6][email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> That's silly. The FSF was unionized with the encouragement and support >> of the FSF executives and board, including RMS, because unions are good, at >> least while the injustice of wage labor still exists. >> >> >> >>> he also caused harm to people and to the FSF organization and the free >> software movement. >> >> >> >> I regard that as a straight up lie because none of the derogatory >> things said about him have supported that conclusion. >> >> >> >> Once again, you are free not to associate with the FSF or the >> movement, but pretending to be an ally while repeating slanders should not >> be tolerated here or anywhere. >> >> >> >> -t >> >> >> >> On 2021-03-26 10:32, Danny Spitzberg wrote: >> >> Consider the fact that several FSF staff are going public for having >> organized and joined a union in order to protect themselves against the >> whims and wills of RMS, like if he suddenly decided to take away health >> insurance for everyone or other workplace dysfunction. >> >> >> >> Forming a union and finally talking about it isn't "whistleblowing" >> because obviously the staff and board chose to contain the problem rather >> than solve or eliminate it. >> >> >> >> However, I think we can agree that it's compelling nonetheless and adds >> to the view that while RMS contributed good things, he also caused harm to >> people and to the FSF organization and the free software movement. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:25 AM Thomas Lord <[7][email protected]> >> wrote: It's wrong to describe people as "whistle blowers" when they >> >> have not produced a complaint that stands up to scrutiny. >> >> >> >> -t >> >> >> >> On 2021-03-26 08:54, Aaron Wolf wrote: >> >>> I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks also >> >>> deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space. Obviously, >> >>> these negative reports about RMS being presented *here* amounts to the >> >>> opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are bring extremely valuable >> >>> perspective -- the sort we *lose* if we aren't careful to assure that >> >>> our >> >>> spaces are not only open to anyone but actually in *practice* have them >> >>> feel welcome and stay. >> >>> >> >>> The Free Software movement is weaker for every loss of perspective. We >> >>> have a duty to be not only gracious but appreciative of people like Deb >> >>> for engaging and staying with us despite the tensions. >> >>> >> >>> Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "...the fact that he faced >> >>> consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the >> >>> decades of shitty behavior..." >> > >> >>>> >> >>>> These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha online >> >>>> statements or whatever else. Those anti-patterns do indeed happen, and >> >>>> they polluted and harmed the credibility of the recent open letter >> >>>> against RMS. But here we have people who fully understand the >> >>>> unfairness >> >>>> and yet can express from extensive personal experience the *actual* >> >>>> reasons why RMS's leadership is problematic. >> >>>> >> >>>> As someone who deeply and profoundly respects RMS for various >> reasons, >> >>>> I >> >>>> still don't just simply support his leadership role. I do not want him >> >>>> banished, I want him to learn and do better on his pain points. I >> don't >> >>>> want to be naive though, efforts in this direction have obviously been >> >>>> done for years and not been enough. >> >>>> >> >>>> I would like to continue to get RMS' insightful and pointed >> >>>> perspectives >> >>>> without having him lead the organization. I would like him to live in >> >>>> the zone where his genius most thrives and he contributes the most, >> and >> >>>> I suggest that the other roles he has had would be better filled by >> >>>> others. >> >>>> >> >>>> If we want a resilient movement, we need to be really open to engaging >> >>>> with complaints. An organization that defends the status quo against >> >>>> such critics is like the NSA attacking Ed Snowden and people >> >>>> insinuating >> >>>> that Snowden is working for Russia (similar to people talking about >> how >> >>>> Deb now works for the OSI and the OSI is connected to corporations). >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm not suggesting deference to the outside unfair critics, the people >> >>>> who do indeed levy unfair attacks, mine quotes, spread FUD, etc. That >> >>>> stuff can be real, and we need to defend against it. >> >>>> >> >>>> But people like Deb are our whistleblowers, they are insiders who are >> >>>> bringing attention to serious issues. If we ignore or attack >> >>>> whistleblowers, we will fail to learn important lessons. This attitude >> >>>> can be fatal to a movement. >> >>>> >> >>>> In solidarity, >> >>>> Aaron Wolf >> >>>> (FSF member since 2014, co-founder of Snowdrift.coop) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list >> >>>> [8][email protected] >> >>>> [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> libreplanet-discuss mailing list >> >>> [10][email protected] >> >>> [11]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss >> -- >> Ali Reza Hayati ([12]https://alirezahayati.com) >> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate >> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 -- Ali Reza Hayati ([13]https://alirezahayati.com) Libre culture activist and privacy advocate PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. https://twitter.com/_msw_/status/1374538607982088197 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 10. mailto:[email protected] 11. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 12. https://alirezahayati.com/ 13. https://alirezahayati.com/
_______________________________________________ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [email protected] https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
