Well, just look at a Mahler score. He was one of the great conductors, and the strings are full of bowing marks. How many of them are followed by conductors these days I don't know. Fortunately for this discussion he didn't use the piano much, but in the 8th symphony at one point he just marks "Pedal" but no details as to exactly where he wants it. Stravinsky's Oedipus rex has some very odd pedal markings in the score but I've no idea what the orchestral part says.
Best regards, Peter mailto:[email protected] www.ptoye.com ------------------------- Monday, May 30, 2022, 5:00:33 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Send lilypond-user mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of lilypond-user digest..." > Today's Topics: > 1. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Kieren MacMillan) > 2. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Kieren MacMillan) > 3. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Peter Toye) > 4. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Simon Bailey) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 09:42:41 -0400 > From: Kieren MacMillan <[email protected]> > To: David Kastrup <[email protected]> > Cc: Simon Bailey <[email protected]>, Lilypond-User Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Hi David, >> It's a matter of efficiency for sections expected to sightread large >> parts of their material to work with performance-ready information even >> if it results from arbitrary choices. > Literally every orchestra and ensemble I’ve ever worked with as composer or > arranger — which now numbers in the hundreds — has specifically requested > that no bowings be in the part(s). They always have their own concermaster > fill in *their* preferred bowings, and then the librarian copies parts for > the players. (Yes, this means different orchestras have performed different > bowings in the same piece!) > As far as I can tell, that’s the standard in the classical music world. > <shrug> > Cheers, > Kieren. > ------------------------------ > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 09:59:18 -0400 > From: Kieren MacMillan <[email protected]> > To: Kira Garvie <[email protected]> > Cc: David Kastrup <[email protected]>, Lilypond-User Mailing List > <[email protected]>, Simon Bailey <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Hi Kira, >> If it’s for a whole section, either it’s the composer or the orchestra >> librarian. Who cares of the conductor changes it, that’s their choice. >> If it’s for a single player like a keyboardist, I would be inclined to >> leave more open to the player - I am a keyboardist with relatively small >> hands, and many times I physically can’t do the fingerings the composer puts >> in, and so printed fingerings do clutter the score when I have to just cross >> them out.😁 Also, pedaling may change based on the acoustics of the room… > Yep. Over-marking is a hallmark of 20th Century [mostly academic, > ivory-tower] thinking. The norm nowadays is to reduce markings to the bare > minimum, and actually trust the musicians to… you know… make music. ;) > Really, this is just the pendulum swinging back to pre-Romantic practice, > which [rightly] entrusted a huge amount of performative latitude and trust to > the performer, instead of dictating every dot and dash and dot-dash [etc.] > “from on high”. > Cheers, > Kieren. > ------------------------------ > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 15:08:27 +0100 > From: Peter Toye <[email protected]> > To: [email protected], [email protected] > Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > Lilypond-user-request, > Best regards, > Peter > mailto:[email protected] > www.ptoye.com > ------------------------- > Monday, May 30, 2022, 2:40:08 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 15:07:48 +0200 >> From: David Kastrup <[email protected]> >> To: Kieren MacMillan <[email protected]> >> Cc: Simon Bailey <[email protected]>, Lilypond-User Mailing List >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> Kieren MacMillan <[email protected]> writes: >>> Hi Simon, >>>> when preparing a conductor's score that also includes a piano (as an >>>> ensemble, not soloist) part, do you also include the pedalling >>>> information for the piano? >>> IMO, a conductor’s score should contain essentially all the >>> information in the performers’ parts, although possibly in a slightly >>> different presentation (e.g., different clef, combined staves, >>> shorthand, etc.) >> I disagree. There is no point in cluttering the conductor's part with >> stuff like fingerings (only relevant to the player) and bowing >> directions (section leader material). >>>> How useful is that information for a conductor? >>> Very! For example, let’s say the piano part says “senza ped.” and the >>> conductor’s score has no marking — the conductor would likely assume >>> the part would be played with pedal (ad lib.), and there might be >>> confusion in rehearsal when the conductor hears no pedal. >> Pedalling is musically relevant to some degree (but often applied by the >> player at will) but it really depends on whether we are talking about >> information mandated by the composer or editorial suggestions. If the >> latter, there seems little point in giving the conductor the information >> necessary to enforce the editor's rather than the composer's vision of >> execution. > I agree with Kieren here. If the conductor doesn't know what the performer > sees, they're going to have to stop the rehearsal to clear it up. Norman del > Mar mentions this about the harmonium part of Strauss's 'Ariadne auf Naxos' > which apparently contains copious detailed instructions about what stops to > use where, all of which is missing from the score. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20220530/539e4cee/attachment.htm> > ------------------------------ > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 16:12:24 +0100 > From: Simon Bailey <[email protected]> > To: Kieren MacMillan <[email protected]> > Cc: Kira Garvie <[email protected]>, David Kastrup <[email protected]>, > Lilypond-User Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores > Message-ID: > <CACdSEeGySCnO=gcsvz+ifqkrezza-fsq62xy2d7-qz3fm4q...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Hi all, > well that kicked off more of a discussion than I expected :D I'm just > going to roll all the replies into one mail. > On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 13:50, Andrew Bernard <[email protected]> > wrote: >> Well the Beethoven 5th Piano Concerto has pedalling in it. At least the >> first edition by B&H. > I'd expect it in a concerto, the question was more for piano in an > ensemble context. > On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 13:54, Kieren MacMillan > <[email protected]> wrote: >>> when preparing a conductor's score that also includes a piano (as an >>> ensemble, not soloist) >>> part, do you also include the pedalling information for the piano? >> IMO, a conductor’s score should contain essentially all the information in >> the performers’ >> parts, although possibly in a slightly different presentation (e.g., >> different clef, combined >> staves, shorthand, etc.) > Thanks, Kieren. That was my impression too. Gould suggests the same – > i.e. combining staves, adjusting clefs, etc. Best example I've seen of > this is where some parts were copied by hand from a Shostakovich > score. The full score had all 3 trombones on one stave in alto clef, > the copyist followed that religiously. Resulting in a bass trombone > part with a *lot* of ledger lines below an alto clef… :D >>> How useful is that information for a conductor? >> Very! For example, let’s say the piano part says “senza ped.” and the >> conductor’s score has >> no marking — the conductor would likely assume the part would be played with >> pedal (ad >> lib.), and there might be confusion in rehearsal when the conductor hears no >> pedal. > Yeah, that makes total sense. > On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:14, Kieren MacMillan > <[email protected]> wrote: >> On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:07, David Kastrup <[email protected]> wrote: >>> I disagree. There is no point in cluttering the conductor's part with >>> stuff like fingerings (only relevant to the player) and bowing >>> directions (section leader material). >> Actually, we agree completely: I believe there’s no point in cluttering >> performers’ parts with >> fingerings (ever) or bowing directions (almost ever). ;) > I agree with you both here, and also with Kieren's later comments. > Bowing instructions should only be *printed* in instructional > material; for orchestral performance, my experience has also been that > the section leaders will determine the bowing and copyists (or the > musicians) will add it by hand. > On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:59, Kieren MacMillan > <[email protected]> wrote: >>> If it’s for a whole section, either it’s the composer or the orchestra >>> librarian. Who cares of >>> the conductor changes it, that’s their choice. >>> If it’s for a single player like a keyboardist, I would be inclined to >>> leave more open to the >>> player - I am a keyboardist with relatively small hands, and many times I >>> physically can’t do > > the fingerings the composer puts in, and so printed >>> fingerings do clutter the score when I >>> have to just cross them out.😁 Also, pedaling may change based on the >>> acoustics of the >>> room… > I agree with the fingerings – I have fairly large hands, so sometimes > fingering doesn't make sense for me either. The pedalling in this case > is very specific for the composition, as has been my experience with > some other "modern" composers (for instance depressing a key without > sound, and then using the sostenuto pedal to get harmonic > interference, etc.). >> Yep. Over-marking is a hallmark of 20th Century [mostly academic, >> ivory-tower] thinking. The norm nowadays is to reduce markings to the bare >> minimum, and actually trust the musicians to… you know… make music. ;) >> Really, this is just the pendulum swinging back to pre-Romantic practice, >> which [rightly] >> entrusted a huge amount of performative latitude and trust to the performer, >> instead of >> dictating every dot and dash and dot-dash [etc.] “from on high”. > As an ex-(failed)-academic (non-music), I like this side of things > too, but as a performer, I far prefer a minimally intrusive part. > Dynamics, potentially some articulations, and that's enough. The rest > will come from the conductor and that's what a pencil is for. ;) > Thanks, all, for the valuable input. Kind regards, > sb
