Linux-Advocacy Digest #569, Volume #25 Thu, 9 Mar 00 06:13:10 EST
Contents:
Re: Disproving the lies. ("Drestin Black")
Re: Disproving the lies. ("2 + 2")
Re: Disproving the lies. ("Drestin Black")
Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux (Ron House)
Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux ("Bobby D. Bryant")
Re: Open Software Reliability (mark)
Re: I can't stand this X anymore! (Stefaan A Eeckels)
Re: BSD & Linux (dbt)
Re: Disproving the lies. ("2 + 2")
Re: Disproving the lies. ("2 + 2")
Re: Disproving the lies. ("2 + 2")
Re: Disproving the lies. ("2 + 2")
Re: Salary? (Desmond Coughlan)
Re: Salary? ("Martin Knoblauch")
Kernels (Was: Re: BSD & Linux) (Alexey Dokuchaev)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:38:54 -0500
"R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8a7038$ihe$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > "R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8a54li$6et$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > <snip>
> >
> > It's nice to see you *start off* trying to
> > sound like you are going to give
> > a fair rebuttle...
> >
> > <quote>
> > > Provided that the NT/Windows 2000 environment is
> > > operated in a data-center-like manner
> > > with policies and procedures for change management,
> > > software updates, software
> > > distribution, backup/restore, and the like; and
> > > </quote>
> > >
> > > Again, this reaffirms my statements that when you conduct
> > > "standard maintenance" (which includes reboots at LEAST once
> > > per week, preferably once/night) and you deduct this as "scheduled
> > > down time" (therefore not included in availability ratings), you
> > > can achieve availability of around 99.97% (more on this below).
> >
> > No no no no no - NO weekly reboots. I do
> > not tell anyone to do this, I do
> > not know of anyone except uninformed/frightened
> > idiot "admins" that do this.
>
>
> > It is completely unnecessary to reboot on
> > any schedule UNLESS you knowing
> > (and willingly?) installed an application with
> > a memory/resource leak.
>
> Memory leaks, resource leaks, MUTEX conflicts, full disks,
> and DLL conflicts.
I'll repeat - no scheduled reboots. Ever. Period. YOu can write as many
words as you'd like but if they do not occur then they are meaningless. Full
disk? What does a reboot do for a full disk? DLL conflict? Reboot does
nothing and W2K has done away with DLL hell. Leaks? If you have one, do you
just go: "oh wow, a leak" and then schedule reboots? Then you are
pathetically stupid. Me, I say, fucking A a leak, and I fix it (even if it
means removing the offending application until the vendor fixes it). I don't
run broken applications - doh!
<snip crap>
> It will be interesting to see how Win2k $/TPM-C actually translates
> in the real world.
Well.. yes it would and is. Ask Digix how their SQL server farms perform...
their customers love the huge savings over oracle and sun.
>
> It will be even more interesting to see what Linux $/TPM-C looks like.
> (has anyone published a "legal one" yet?).
none exist to date.
>The last unofficial one
> I saw was $2/TPM-C on a 30,000 TPM system based on P-II/300s and Linux.
Oh, unofficial ones that "I saw" are counted here? Well... <cough cough>
ahem, I remember seeing a $1/TPM-C for a 100,000 TPM system based on a 386
running W3.1 once....yea, really I did... yea...
> Unfortunately, it was not approved, not properly sponsored, and the
> TPM review committee demanded that all references to these results
> be removed.
not approved - gee, what does that say to you?
>They appearantly didn't disagree with the results, only
> that the results couldn't be published without the permission of the
> entire membership. Since the membership included Oracle, Sybase, IBM,
> HP, and SUN, there weren't any votes that wanted to see these results
> published.
THAT is bullshit and you should know better. You show me where ANYWHERE it
says that anything remotely like that could happen. I am forwarding these
remarks to tpc.org - i think they'll want to know how you lie about them.
And, dummy, didn't you think: IF what you wrote was true, why didn't these
people block the TWO world record setting results from MS? Eh? Do you think
Sun/Oracle loved being exposed for the overpriced/underperforming systems
they produce? You can't even get your lies to corroberate each other!
it's simply not worth continuing... it's too easy to debunk you
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:14:18 -0500
R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) wrote in message
<8a6phv$dpt$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>In article <v%sx4.6$897.392@client>,
<Snip>
>
>I should point out that if you put enough redundant servers
>into parallel, you can make a system appear to be much more
>reliable. Dell and Barns&Noble both use this approach, as does
>the Microsoft site. I've heard of some systems which use load
>balancing routers and firewalls (actually UNIX systems disguised as
>appliances) to distribute the traffic across as many as 300 servers.
>
>IBM's WebShere provides the same type of load balancing across multiple
>UNIX systems or NT systems. The company I discussed above replecated
>multiple copies of each NOTES database so that even massive NT failures
>requiring "reengineering" of the server (reinstallation of all software)
>didn't result in a catastrophic loss.
You are a visionary!
Both Windows 2000 and Linux are going to use this approach with
off-the-shelf hardware to get "high availability."
It's the wave of the future. The technologies are not new, but the effect of
COMMODITY clustering on the market is unprecedented.
Whether the top 500 corporations use it is irrelevant.
You know, with dot.com money coming out the ears, efficiency does not seem
to matter.
But the effect of the "screen" on, for example, online trading has sent
low-cost Schwab to the top of the hill. Brokers commissions have dropped
like a rock. If it's any consolation to you, the last time I looked, their
stock trading is on a mainframe. :)
"Screen" is a term used in opposition to "open outcry" in stock trading.
Guess which one is winning. The world wide financial markets have been
effected. Of course these changes have been happening for quite some time
before the web.
The financial industry worldwide has been impacted tremendously. The Russian
financial scam was aided by some banking software. How do you keep the
banking classes, and now the masses, down.
>>pops over a shrinkwrapped banking software ("Instant Offshore Bank"), puts
the CD-ROM in.
"Let's see. Clicks on Aruba."
>>Uploads to the server.
"Deposits anyone?"
But I digress.
There is coming a relentless downward pressure in prices. The web "screen"
economy has very low cost of entry.
Mass advertising has not had the impact on web users. It has its own
culture.
While there will always be a high end market, but the web market is a
relentless price driven competition in the end.
The TPC-C benchmark is a shot across the bow. Sun and IBM have responded
with "great deals" on packages, if only the customer will use their now much
more overpriced hardware.
The clustering approach to high availability is a conscious business
decision on the part of Microsoft.
2 + 2
>Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
>I/T Architect, MIS Director
>http://www.open4success.com
>Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
>and growing at over 1%/week!
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:43:17 -0500
"2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8a7gq1$kac$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Drestin Black wrote in message ...
> >It's a very long read but it is very well documented and detailed.
>
> You got that right. It's much too long to read.
>
> 2 + 2
I understand...
I'll summarize: W2K is enterprise ready for any mission critical
application.
------------------------------
From: Ron House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 07:26:56 +0000
5X3 wrote:
>
> Itchy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > As a small business owner I am always interested in ways to save money. We
> > switched from Apple to
> > IBM when Apple's pricing became too much to handle. I recently tried Redhat
> > Linux in the hopes
> > that I could save some money.
>
> > Well I spent 11 days messing around with this so called operating system and
> > for the life
> > of me can't figure out why in the world anyone in business would want to
> > waste
> > time on this obviously hacked together, half finished program.
>
> Sounds like the fact is that you're too stupid to make linux work. Its
> really not all that difficult.
>
> Theres no shame in being stupid. In fact, most people are. It would
> serve the rest of us quite nicely if you could just come to grips with
> your own stupidity and move on, keeping it in mind the next time you
> attempt something that requires a little mental elbow-grease.
Well, there is one point here: RH distributions contain unproven
experimental rubbish that hasn't had its raw edges knocked off. 5X3
should have tried a more reliable version of Linux. OTOH, he can hardly
point at Windoze: mine, for example, crashes with an invalid opcode
inside the kernel (or whatever they call it) every time I shut down.
--
Ron House [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Never fear the truth.
------------------------------
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 01:43:32 -0600
Ron House wrote:
> OTOH, he can hardly
> point at Windoze: mine, for example, crashes with an invalid opcode
> inside the kernel (or whatever they call it) every time I shut down.
That's not a bug, that's their new "accelerated shutdown" feature.
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
------------------------------
From: mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Open Software Reliability
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 08:15:07 +0000
by wrote:
>
> "Frank Mayer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8a2uvc$23mf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I wonder if someone could help me understand a claim that the development
> > paradigm for open source software in general (and for Linux in particular)
> > yields higher reliability, maintainability and stability.
> >
>
> I doubt this. From my experience using windows, linux, & bsd, I think
> OS-wise, open source has probably produced more stable OS, but with poorer
> hardware support. I personally haven't seen any stablity difference between
> Linux & NT, but I mostly used them as workstations, not as servers.
>
> On the application side, I'd to divide it into two categories:
>
> 1. command-line/console applications. These applications/programs tend to be
> highly technical in nature, and open source & closed source produced
> software of roughly the same quality.
>
> 2. GUI applications. Open source generally failed to produce reliable &
> stable applications.
Personally, I have to use Msoft office at work - its extremely unstable.
I use both Linux and Win95, and find that the open gui apps are
generally very stable, whereas the closed stuff is not.
Example would be Netscape on Win or Lin - it's not that stable! Closed
source does not stable graphical apps make
Mark.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefaan A Eeckels)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: I can't stand this X anymore!
Date: 9 Mar 2000 08:37:29 GMT
In article <8a5vvh$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Gettys) writes:
>
> 11) X is ugly, and should be thrown away. :-).
If uglyness were a criterion for discarding software,
I guess most ought to be thrown away. If anything,
Win32 is uglier still (unless you're talking about
how it looks on a monitor, which I somehow doubt).
--
Stefaan
--
--PGP key available from PGP key servers (http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/)--
Ninety-Ninety Rule of Project Schedules:
The first ninety percent of the task takes ninety percent of
the time, and the last ten percent takes the other ninety percent.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (dbt)
Crossposted-To:
comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.openbsd.misc
Subject: Re: BSD & Linux
Date: 9 Mar 2000 00:50:39 -0800
Peter da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> says:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> *BSDs have different source trees, VM models. The difference between
>> NetBSD and FreeBSD is much greater than the difference between, say,
>> Debian and Redhat.
>
>That depends on whether you're a user or a kernel hacker.
>
>For a user, the difference between *BSD is nothing compared to the massive
>variety of filesystem layouts and administrative interfaces in Linux.
>
>If I could get a Linux kernel with FreeBSD userland I'd probably be happy
>with that.
Which is funny, because Debian is working on the opposite, because they
like the performance advantages of the FreeBSD kernel.
--
David Terrell | "Instead of plodding through the equivalent of
Prime Minister, NebCorp | literary Xanax, the pregeeks go for sci-fi and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | fantasy: LSD in book form." - Benjy Feen,
http://wwn.nebcorp.com | http://www.monkeybagel.com/ "Origins of Sysadmins"
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:12:22 -0500
Drestin Black wrote in message ...
>
>"2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8a7gq1$kac$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> Drestin Black wrote in message ...
>> >It's a very long read but it is very well documented and detailed.
>>
>> You got that right. It's much too long to read.
>>
>> 2 + 2
>
>I understand...
>
>I'll summarize: W2K is enterprise ready for any mission critical
>application.
>
Cool. That was easier on the eyeballs.
2 + 2
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:12:22 -0500
Drestin Black wrote in message ...
>
>"2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8a7gq1$kac$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> Drestin Black wrote in message ...
>> >It's a very long read but it is very well documented and detailed.
>>
>> You got that right. It's much too long to read.
>>
>> 2 + 2
>
>I understand...
>
>I'll summarize: W2K is enterprise ready for any mission critical
>application.
>
Cool. That was easier on the eyeballs.
2 + 2
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:29:47 -0500
R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) wrote in message
<8a6phv$dpt$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>In article <v%sx4.6$897.392@client>,
<Snip>
>Oracle, Sybase, Informix, and IBM are offering their flagship databases
>on Linux and Linux compatible systems (the BSD variants). BEA is
>offering Tuxedo, and IBM has MQSeries in Beta.
Isn't Tuxedo a Transaction Processing monitor?
Also, the whole industry is going to componentised TP monitors, sometimes
called OTMs or Object Transaction Monitors.
I believe nearly all of the non Microsoft variety are EJB based. Since these
are first generation products and MTS is a third generation product, then
they have had the usual developmental problems.
Tuxedo is an older product. It is proven, yet the development for it is
difficult. That is the reason the whole industry is going to components.
With components, you can chose the language you want to develop in. Except
EJB is limited to Java and some related minor languages like Dylan and
Eiffel. The great strength of EJB is that it is cross-platform, although not
necessarily cross-vendor.
These technologies will greatly strengthen Linux.
2 + 2
>Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
>I/T Architect, MIS Director
>http://www.open4success.com
>Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
>and growing at over 1%/week!
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:12:22 -0500
Drestin Black wrote in message ...
>
>"2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8a7gq1$kac$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> Drestin Black wrote in message ...
>> >It's a very long read but it is very well documented and detailed.
>>
>> You got that right. It's much too long to read.
>>
>> 2 + 2
>
>I understand...
>
>I'll summarize: W2K is enterprise ready for any mission critical
>application.
>
Cool. That was easier on the eyeballs.
2 + 2
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Desmond Coughlan)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
Date: 9 Mar 2000 10:41:14 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:47:54 +0100, Matthias Warkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
> > Education.
> Germany has got the best educational system in the whole damn world.
> That at least was the opinion of U.S. educational experts who came to
> my country when the Clinton administration took over to study our
> system in order to plan reforms.
I've heard that said, too. France has an extremely open and free
educational system. Anyone can study right up to doctorate level,
and only have to pay about 800 FFr (about 239 DM) per year. Tuition
is free, as is the right to present oneself at exams.
[snip]
> > I work so I can have a good living. I don't live so I can have a good
> > work/job/empolyment.
> Yup. Germany is a relaxed country. People can't imagine this because
> they know our Prussia-dominated past, but all through the centuries,
> we've only waited to break free from that stranglehold. A shame it
> took a series of catastrophic cataclysms to get us here.
We work 35 hours in France. As my job comes under the auspices of the
City of Paris, this is enforced quite strictly.
[snip]
--
Desmond Coughlan Network Engineer Forum des Images Paris France
***************************************************************************
The views expressed in these articles are my own, and do not necessarily
reflect the views of the Forum des Images.
***************************************************************************
[EMAIL PROTECTED] + 33 (0)1 44.76.62.29 http://www.forumdesimages.net/
------------------------------
From: "Martin Knoblauch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:06:10 +0100
"Greg Yantz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Carlos J. G. Duarte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > In comp.os.linux.misc Mr. Rupert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > [...]
> > > In what respect is the standard of living higher in Germany than in
the
> > > USA?
>
> > they have better cars than you.
>
> Some of them. :)
>
Most of them.
> > they have tax-free highways.
>
> They get taxed in plenty of other ways.
>
Probaly a miswording. We have toll-free highways. But we pay a lot of taxes
for them.
> > they have 6 weeks vacancies, you have 2.5.
>
> I thought it was 5. Over here 2 is minimum, more is
> not unusual.
>
There is no law on it, but most positions will get you 6 weeks (30 working
days, with a usual 5 working day week). Some more. Junior positions may
start with 4-5, but quickly grow to 6.
> > most german workers have a 36h week.
>
Now there is the question of what is in your contract and what you actually
work. I have 35 right now, but I guess I do more like 50. But my salary is
pretty good and I am "expected" to go the extra hours.
> You don't see many European start-ups, then. :) This is both
> good and bad, and part of a larger debate. (And has some tiny
> relation to linux...)
>
Very much a question (in Germany) of overregulation and overtaxing from the
government side. Self-employment (as a seed for starting your own business)
is very difficult.
> > they don't have speed limits...
>
> On some roads...
>
There is no general speed limit on the highway. But 80% of the highways
have explicit limitations. And what good is the right to break your neck at
200 km/h if you are stuck in morning traffic.
All other roads have implicit limits.
> > they have free medical assistance
not true. We pay a lot of mandatory or voluntary health insurance. For
low-med paying jobs the mandatory health insurance is about 12-13% of the
pre-tax income (employer pays half of it by law). There is an upper income
limit from where on you can choose to switch to a voluntary/private
insurance, which usually is cheaper and offers better service.
If you really want the best health service you need to pay for it (or have
a private insurance). Of course nobody will be refused admission to a
hospital if there is a life threatening situation.
> > they have a freely educational system...
>
> Couldn't really comment. Though from what I've heard, the educational
> system can be very limiting- it's pretty much laid out for you from a
> surprisingly young age what types of schools you go to (and *can* go to).
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
You (or your parents) have to make some early decisions, but nothing is
ever fixed. Basically all kids start school at about 6. For the first four
years all got to the same school. After four years "you" make a decision:
- stay at basic school "Grundschule" for another 5 years. After passing you
may be able to learn "simple" professions or enter the unemployment market.
As sadly surprising high amount of those people cannot read or write
properly.
- stay for another 6 years at "Realschule". Passing this will allow you to
learn a "qualified" profession. Everything that needs good mastering of
written german and good practical math skills. From there on you can still
get the qualification for university.
- stay another 8 (or is it 9) years at a "Gymnasium" (very differnet from a
Us "gym" :-). Passing the final examination opens you admission to
University.
Universities are mostly public and almost free of fees. Still a university
education will coust you (you parents) a lot of money. With a five year
minimum study time and 12/13 school years you leave university at age 24
earliest. If you get a PHD it will bring you to 30-35. This is something
that hurts us a lot (so industry says at least ...).
The whole story is rather complex and varies from state to state. So I
might have confused some of it - especially as I am out of it for some time
and have no kids to worry about these issues.
> > although, they do have problems:
> > . wether: too cold at winter, too hot at summer
>
> Try North Dakota, or Montana. The US is *big*, and parts of it have
> really nasty weather. I've been in Germany in the winter, and it just
> didn't seem that bad. :P
>
I believe the correct term is "moderate". Never getting to cold in winter
and never getting to hot in summer. Hint: we have no deserts or glaciers
around here.
> > . language: hardly understandable or spoken :-)
>
> True. I never had any trouble finding people who spoke better English
> than I do, when I needed help. :)
>
French is much worse than German. At least to me :-)
Martin
------------------------------
From: Alexey Dokuchaev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.openbsd.misc
Subject: Kernels (Was: Re: BSD & Linux)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 17:09:22 +0600
Peter da Silva wrote:
> If I could get a Linux kernel with FreeBSD userland I'd probably be happy
> with that.
Actually, Linux kernel is pretty lame (don't bash me on that ;-) compared to
FreeBSD one. fBSD's is much more organized, logical... (i love that
/usr/src/sys/ make stuff and editing congif files by vi) + fast, neat, and
well-optimized. It makes use of many algorithmic advantages, unlike linux,
since fBSD has very deep academic root behind it. Maybe the only thing fBSD
lacks is decent modules support (like in linux).
------------------------------
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