Linux-Advocacy Digest #593, Volume #25 Sat, 11 Mar 00 12:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: What might really help Linux (a developer's perspective) (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: What might really help Linux (a developer's perspective) (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Giving up on NT (Joseph)
Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux (Wolfgang Weisselberg)
Re: XFree86 v. 4.0 hits the street. (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Notebook Computer & Linux - Advice Needed (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Notebook Computer & Linux - Advice Needed (Donovan Rebbechi)
Good Linux Books - Cheap (was - I need Linux for Morons (Mark S. Bilk)
Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux (Andres Soolo)
Re: Giving up on NT (Joseph)
Re: Mandrake=Poison? ("Joseph T. Adams")
Re: Fairness to Winvocates (was Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K) (Wolfgang
Weisselberg)
Re: RHCE ("Joseph T. Adams")
In the middle of it all... (Kool Breeze)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: What might really help Linux (a developer's perspective)
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:12:40 GMT
On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:28:56 +0100, Davorin Mestric wrote:
>this will never happen, because the linux community already perceives
>that linux is the best development platform. this is off course far
>from the truth, but truth is not important. what is important is what
>people think, not what actually is. so, there would be no push to
>improve something which is already 'best'.
Your whole argument is based on a gross overgeneralisation. If it's
really true that we're resting on our laurels, why is it that so mouch
effort over the last two years has gone into development tools ( KDE,
GNOME, QT and GTK ) ? I put it to you that the Linux developers are smart
enough to realise that Linux isn't perfect, even if a few advocacy clowns
do not know better.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: What might really help Linux (a developer's perspective)
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:17:44 GMT
On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:17:56 GMT, Mark Weaver wrote:
>1. Free.
>2. Open-source.
>3. Generated both Linux and Windows apps from the same source code.
>
>Yes, there's Qt, but it ain't free or open source for generating Win32 apps
>(or commercial Linux apps either).
That should be "proprietary Linux apps", not "commercial ..." and in that
sense, it's no less free than a GPLd library ( like readline or gdbm )
Qt does cost, but the cost of a license is infinitesmal compared to the
cost of developer time.
>Wouldn't it make sense for the open source community to focus on producing a
>better VisualBasic-than-VisualBasic and a better VisualC-than-VisualC that
>produced both Win and Linux apps, so that as developers chose to use these
>tools, the Linux versions would fall out for free?
Qt, KDE and Python are a good start. However, I'm not sure how much this
helps because for most developers ofthird party apps, the main development
platform is windows. I'd say the priority should be with knocking the dev
tools into shape -- better dev tools will make porting easier.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:19:42 -0500
From: Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Giving up on NT
Mike Timbol wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Mike Timbol wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Mike Timbol wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >PCs easily surpass the 1994 PSX console but failed to unseat it as the most
> >popoular a game device.
>
> A Porsche 911 easily suprasses a Toyota Camry, but failed to unseat it as the
> most popular car. Should Porsche stop making 911s, and make a clone of the
> Camry instead? Should everyone who wants to buy a 911 buy a Camry instead?
That's a non responsive arguement.
As the console technology aged the growing technical advantage PCs aquired had little
impact on growing game revenue. porsche-shmorsha. Now that consoles are being
updated and adding more PC funcationality it seems likely the PC market will collapse
due to developer/publisher defections. The PC like X-BOX sure looks like MS's attempt
to keep developers.
=====
"Microsoft will have to convince people that there will be an installed base" that
makes development efforts worthwhile, said Michael Arrington, director of software
research for Jon Peddie Associates, a market research firm. In other words, there have
to be enough potential customers for people to sell games at a profit.
Microsoft argues that in the PC world alone, there are plenty of potential customers.
Adding a PC-like game console would in theory only add to that market.
Executives from game console makers Sony and Sega aren't quite as sure that developers
are excited about that prospect. "In the last nine months, there's been a huge shift
among PC game title publishers," Neal Robison, group director of licensing at Sega
remarked at a panel discussion today. "They are tired of struggling to keep up with
the PC platform."
----
> There's more to making a decision than popularity.
MONEY MONEY and more MONEY.
> >According to this article, PC gaming is a maker comprised of only ~2 million
> >people.
> >http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20000307S0008
>
> Heh. Earlier you posted an article that showed the PC games market to have
> about $2.1 billion in sales. Are we to believe that every PC gamer spends
> more than $1000 on games software EVERY YEAR? If so, I'm way behind.
What to believe?.... Well what do we have as data? It sure isn't perfect but we know
these data can show gross trends and within a study should show relative market sizes.
I'd welcome some URLs that show strength in the PC market - data on sales of PC games
and positive news about PC game start-ups. Please contribute as you can.
Maybe people should rush out and buy a new PC if they had some confidence there would
be a healthy and growing PC market. A market showing 5% growth in a period of rapidly
increasing development costs MUST show change soon or it is a dying market. Given the
PC game market contraction occured prior to the new consoles, I see little hope that
the market will do anything but contract. One begins to understand why MS was forced
to announce the "PC like" X-BOX.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Wolfgang Weisselberg)
Subject: Re: 11 Days Wasted ON Linux
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:19:03 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 11 Mar 2000 06:44:13 GMT,
Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2000 20:16:09 GMT, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
> >Not to defend RH, but you know that KDE and Gnome are related in
> >the same way as X and a window manager? Gnome != WM. KDE == WM.
> kwin/kwm == WM
> KDE is
> (a) an API that includes QT widgets and some other stuff.
> (b) a collection of applications including a WM.
Ok, I have been unclear. I admit it. KDE _includes_ a WM. KDE
is more than just a WM.
> e <-> kwin , kwm
e is not part of gnome, e is the enlightenment WM, unless I am
very mistaken. So it makes sense to install a WM like kwm (and
all the rest?) so you can use gnome.
-Wolfgang
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: XFree86 v. 4.0 hits the street.
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:26:55 GMT
On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:03:40 GMT, The Unbeliever wrote:
>
> Yeah yeah, I've used Afterstep, WindowMaker, KDE, icewm, amiwm, mlwm,
>, twm, fvwm, fvwm2, fvwm95, CDE, blackbox and some other a can't remember
>now ...
KDE is not a window manager.
>waste really, KDE and GNOME in particular are as bloated as Windows.
KDE is "bloated" because it is more than a window manager. It's kind of
like comparing an office suite to a console text editor and concluding that
the office suite is "bloated".
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Notebook Computer & Linux - Advice Needed
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:30:12 GMT
On Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:58:31 GMT, ax wrote:
>I plan to buy a notebook computer to run Linux.
>But I am not sure which notebook computer
>will be the best choice. Can someone tell me
>which brand of the notebook computers work
>the best with which brands of Linux?
If you're buying it with Linux in mind, get Linux preloaded (IMO)
THe following should be able to give you Linux on a laptop:
www.dell.com
www.aslab.com
www.swt.com
Cheers,
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Notebook Computer & Linux - Advice Needed
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:31:20 GMT
On 9 Mar 2000 18:11:39 GMT, Brian Langenberger wrote:
>ax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>*) strong NeoMagic graphics card support (support out-of-box with RedHat
> in any case)
That's good if you are prepared to forgive neomagic ...
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark S. Bilk)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Good Linux Books - Cheap (was - I need Linux for Morons
Date: 11 Mar 2000 15:54:44 GMT
In article <8abhm0$snh$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Sage Kim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>...
>as subject states, I need something even more basic than
>"Linux for Dummies".
If you or someone you know is a member (~ $35/yr) at Costco
stores, you can buy _Mastering Red Hat Linux 6_, and
_Linux: The Complete Reference, 3rd. Ed._, which are both
900+ page books normally priced at $40, for only $24 each.
They might have some small differences from Mandrake 7.0
(based on Red Hat) but for the most part should be very
informative. (You don't really need a book with "Idiot" or
"Moron" in the title. 8^)
There's also plenty of good help documentation on the Web,
much of it at the Linux Documentation Project:
http://www.linuxdoc.org
A good search engine for Linux info is located at:
http://www.google.com/linux
If you still have problems, post questions in
comp.os.linux.setup; that's the main help newsgroup.
Don't worry -- after a few days of playing with the system
using some good information sources, it will become easy
and familiar.
------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux
Date: 11 Mar 2000 16:03:26 GMT
Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>I often can't use DEBS, I don't know why, but they won't work in Corel, and
>>are hard to find.
> This is not really accurate. THere are only two distributions that use this
> format, and one is built upon the other.
This is not accurate either. There are at least three distributions that
use the deb format, and two (Stormix and Corel) are built upon the third.
Plus, DOSLinux should be Debian-based two, if that counts as a real
distribution.
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Overdrawn? But I still have checks left!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:13:14 -0500
From: Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Giving up on NT
Mike Timbol wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >People obviously buy PC games. Edios is cutting titles form 20 to 12. What
> >does that tell you or more important - what do you want that fact to tell you?
>
> What that fact tells me is that there's some reason Eidos still develops
> PC games. Eidos looks at the cost of developing for the two markets, looks
> at the demographics and potential rewards of each, and *still* develops PC
> games in addition to consoles. There must be a reason, no? Obviously
> your "opportunity cost" argument is not so clear cut.
Let us use an anology. Borland/Inprise still sells Windows software but the company
is shifting resources to LINUX.
...
> >"Andventure" inspired these games Mike.
>
> Yeah, the same way that Pong inspired Doom. Meaning, not in any real sense.
> I'm sure the developers of Grim Fandango and Curse of Monkey Island didn't
> refer to "Adventure" at all, during development.
I would think Tank Commander inspired Doom but we'd have to ask those who work at ID.
I see the similarity - first person perspective, gun in front, 3D rendered world,
movement ... Do arcade games count as consoles being they have the same keybroad free,
TV monitor interface?
> >> 2. Being designed on a NeXT means nothing. Do you think there's a single
> >> console game that's actually designed on a console? Of course not.
> >
> >A Wintel PC isn't the most efficient platform for creating content.
>
> A Wintel PC is far more efficient than a console at creating content.
> Still, this is neither here nor there; the fact is irrelevent to the
> discussion.
Wintel is?
> >> 3. You've failed to name a single console game that inspired a PC title
> >> in any of the categories I've named.
> >
> >We disagree about what it menas to be "inspired".
>
> Here's your quote:
>
> "...it is very easy to find console games the inspired PC titles."
>
> You still haven't named a single one.
You're right.
> >> The X-BOX is still over a year away, so there can't possibly be any PC
> >> games emulating games for the X-BOX.
> >
> >No Mike the emulator does emulation and the X-BOX (And DC WinCE) is the
> >mechanism by which PC will copy/follow comsole titles.
>
> Ah, so your claim is that the PC will copy/follow console titles *MORE THAN
> A YEAR FROM NOW*, when the X-BOX is released. So, basically, you're just
> predicting the future, yet again.
No Mike. Emulators exist now. MS has linked the X-BOX to the PC. X-BOX console games
can run on the PC so even as the X-BOX is being designed for manufacturing, game
development is already being skewed - I bet MS is even sharing development costs.
[...]
> You're spouting nonsense. Are you claiming Homeworld, Half-Life, Diablo II,
> and Age of Empires aren't popular? No, you're not. They are unquestioningly
> popular PC games. Yet they aren't on consoles. There must be a reason why,
> no?
You must know something I don't so tell me how these titles comapre to console titles
- use dollars.
Popularity ~ Dollars.
I don't know how popular these titles are in the absolute sense unless I see that
popularity measured in MONEY.
> >Diablo like games are in development for the new consoles like DC.
>
> Wow, I can't wait. In a few months, the Dreamcast may finally have a title
> that copies a three-year old PC game. How exciting.
SEGA isn't porting Diablo.
A modern, optimized DC engine for the class of game YOU decided to describe with the
moniker of Diablo, is under development by SEGA.
[...]
> Interestingly, we have a discrepancy between your view of the market, and
> the way that dozens of companies, which have been in the industry for many
> years, are actually operating. There are dozens of companies that aren't
> acting the way you say they should act.
>
> Your way of explaining this discrepancy is to conclude that these are stupid
> companies, run by stupid people.
>
> I don't think that's the best explanation.
What did you just say? You seem scared to venture any opinion besides tossing eggs at
me. Are you trying to tell me publishers haven't shifted more $ to titles for
consoles? Don't you beleive in the free market punishing and rewarding decisions? I
do!
If you accept the free market then you accept that not all choices made by comapnies
are perfect and the market is the rewarding force. So a company that decides to fight
head-to-head in a market - say C compilers for the dominate PC platform - might not
see the long term rewards of their efforts. The fact they are making the tool doesn't
verfity the wisdom of their decision or the viability of that market. If they had
looked at other opportunites sooner they might be healthier.
> >Somewhat - I don't now own a PSX but I have read extensively on the strategy
> >and the plot and the adult reviewers say otherwise about the characters and
> >game play.
>
> So, basically, you haven't really played the game. OK, can't really blame
> you if you don't have a PSX. Still, in almost all of the reviews ones I've
> read, the graphics and plot are praised. But few of the reviews mention
> the gameplay or strategy in a positive manner. If you have the time, rent
> a PSX and FF8, and play it for several hours. See how long until you get
> bored of the combat sequences.
> >> >Homeworld was praised for its simplicity in the review. It isn;t as
> >> >complex as other games where too much time is organizing and planning
> >> >resources.
> >>
> >> So, we can agree that Homeworld is a good and popular game. Now explain
> >> why Homeworld isn't available on any console.
> >
> >Homeworld is popular in the PC niche. I cannot say if it is as popular
> >as a console title - the priase was for it's unqiusness, not sales.
>
> Then there's a huge problem in your argument. Homeworld is a popular PC
> game. You're not sure if it would be a popular console game. Obviously,
> there is a difference between the two markets. If the markets were
> identical, then a game popular in one market would be popular in both.
How can I be sure?
You take a title and move it to a larger market with higher profit margins. Seems
like a good move and the game which agian I have read about in a few detailed
articles, seems like it would play well on a DC.
> >I think I understand why Homeworld is not on the PSX 1 or N64.
>
> Interesting. OK, explain why.
The 1994/95 console hardware is too limited. I think the DC could be capable with
added memory units.
> >> >> If it's already over, why is Eidos, your prime example, producing PC games
> >> >> at all?
> >> >
> >> >If it isn't over then why is MS producing the X-BOX?
> >>
> >> Microsoft is producing the X-BOX to get a share of the console market.
> >> They see an opportunity, and they want to exploit it. That's a perfectly
> >> logical answer that explains the situtation and doesn't mean the PC is
> >> dead.
> >>
> >> Now, would you care to answer *my* question?
>
> I'll note that you *still* haven't answered my question.
It took 6 days to create the "world" and god had no installed base.
For me producing 20 and then only 12 titles is a huge shift for one year. Why not 0?
I'm not sure it makes any sense to expect a company to behave so abruptly. The
Dreamcast console popularity surprised a lot of publishers.
------------------------------
From: "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Mandrake=Poison?
Date: 11 Mar 2000 16:23:36 GMT
I use Mandrake 7.0 (and 6.1 before that) and have had relatively few
major problems myself; however, this is very much a bleeding-edge
distro, and it tends to have rough edges.
I've found that if you can survive the install process, it is a very
good distro for desktop use.
For anything other than desktop use I'd probably prefer something
different.
Joe
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Wolfgang Weisselberg)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fairness to Winvocates (was Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K)
Date: 11 Mar 2000 16:26:45 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:46:20 GMT,
George Marengo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Mar 2000 22:25:03 GMT, "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >"George Marengo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> If what you really mean is that it was re-written and is almost
> >> entirely new/different from the one originally supplied by the
> >> OS vendor... do you have a cite for that claim?
> >I don't handy, but it's common knowledge. There were several threads
> >about 2 or 3 months ago when this debate was active then documenting
> >these claims.
> What's common knowledge is simply that modifications had to be made
> to the TCP stack. The breadth and depth of those modifications isn't.
They probably just popped in a BSD-Stack. With the licenses of
Free|Net|Open-BSD this is rather trivial. This would explain why
netcraft shows BSD for hotmail ... read netcraft's website.
Note that it was also given in this thread's precursor that any OS
would have to be adjusted, 'even' W2K.
> >> MS gave away NT with purchase of Visual C++ Pro
> >> MS gave away NT with purchase of Visual Basic Pro
> >> (that's how I got NT -- for free)
> >Specials and promotions are not the same.
> No? They gave away the OS for free, and there wasn't even a
> sticker on the box saying it was included.
But it ruins his argument. And he's to eleetist to rephrase it.
For that reason your argument is not allowed.
> >This is why there is a huge adoption of NT and now 2K for web
> >and application services on the Internet.
You mean like ... huge German and US banks? For example the
"Deutsche Bank" (going to fusion with the "Drestender Bank" and
going to be -- once more -- the largest bank in the world ba
transaction volume? Apache-Solaris. All the way.
> From current NT sites? Sure. If they were taking business away
> from *nix sites, MS would be crowing about it, and they're not.
And I guess Chad's got no data on his claim.
-Wolfgang
------------------------------
From: "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: linux.redhat.misc
Subject: Re: RHCE
Date: 11 Mar 2000 16:28:08 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy S. Christopher Cunningham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Ed wrote:
:> Has anyone encountered employers requesting RHCE certification? What is
:> the general opinion about the value of the RHCE? Have you seen many
:> jobs for linux sys admins?
: I have not seen or heard of anyone requesting RHCE so far. I have
: personally cheked out a few of the books though, just to be safe and was
: dissapointed in them. Save your money for now and just keep learning on
: your own.
RHCE certification is fairly expensive, and from what I hear, pretty
consistently booked months in advance. There has got to be a demand
for it somewhere, although to be honest, I haven't seen much in my
area (Cleveland, Ohio, which is a technological backwater).
Joe
------------------------------
From: Kool Breeze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: In the middle of it all...
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:03:54 GMT
Very few people posting to this group have real evidence of a REAL
WORLD application to compare NT and Linux.
Not me. I am in the middle of it all.
Our company has a Linux based system comprised of 6 applications. Of
course, we have a Win32 Client part to each of these apps that
connects to our Linux box which does the real work. BTW: We could not
sell this application without a Windows front end a few years ago,
hence the Win9x/WInNT client side to our app.
The Linux based system took 2 programmers 2 years to finish. That's 4
man years. BTW. I am one of the two programmers.
Our company was purchased at about the same time the buyer (now parent
company) had an NT product ready to deploy. They have had 5
programmers working for 5 years and they have ONE of the 6
applications ready.
That's 25 man years for 16% of a total (comparable) system.
For up to 50 simultaneous users:
We run our 6 Linux based applications on ONE PII 350 with 128Mb RAM.
There ONE application requires 6 (yes SIX) NT servers to run.
The MINIMUS REQUIREMENTS for EACH of the SIX servers:
PIII 450 + 256Mb EACH.
Guess what. The one NT product does not yet have all the features our
(comparable) product has. The one thing that they had on one
application over ours took me about two weeks to add to our product.
Guess what else. The NT based product's install program contains as
many lines of code as our TOTAL server side.
Guess what else. Their support staff for their 20 clients is the same
size as ours. We have been supporting over 150 clients for several
years.
Guess what else. Our profit margin has dropped from a nice 40% to a
measly 20%. (Much of this is our cost for the NT Sever Licenses and
hardware).
This is the kicker, the NT-based system has had more down-time in EACH
client than ALL of our 150 clients combined over 2 years. BTW: This
system IS mission and time critical.
So no one will EVER convince me that there is better performance, less
down-time, lower cost of ownership in NT.
BTW: Preliminary benchmarks have shown that Win2K does perform about
30-40% better so we will might be able to drop one of the 6 servers
out of our NT-mess.
I
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
