Linux-Advocacy Digest #325, Volume #26 Mon, 1 May 00 13:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: which OS is best? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Who to blame next... (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Who to blame next... (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Who to blame next... (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Government to break up Microsoft ("Christopher Smith")
Re: Gates admits MS "engineers" suck? (Robert Browder)
Re: Government to break up Microsoft ("Christopher Smith")
Re: Where is PostScript support?? (Stephen Cornell)
Re: Web page rendering Linux (KDE) vs. windows 2000 (Stephen Cornell)
Re: Are we equal? (GoD)
Re: X Windows must DIE!!! (Marty Dippel)
Re: Who to blame next... (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Are we equal? (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Split Dude! ("Ermine Todd")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: 1 May 2000 10:23:04 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:17:36 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
>wrote:
>
>>>>Why? it prints okay as is, it just has to open it first. With a working
>>>>windows 9X setup, you don't tinker uneccesarily. THe registry is fragile
>>>>enough as it is.
>>>
>>>But it * doesn't * print okay -- it asks for an association that it
>>>shouldn't.
>>
>>It means that I have to open the file in AAcrobat, and print from there,
>>annoying, and time consuming, especially if there are more than a couple
>>of files, but not worth risking screwing up the registry.
>
>Get real. Stop the registry whining and just remove the old version
>of Acrobat and install the new one. Geez.. you'd think it was as
>difficult as installing a kernel in Linux the way you whine about it.
Difficult? Are you typing the source in yourself?
Rpm -Uhv kernel*rpm works for me. Or grab the source and 'make install'.
Your distribution may vary, but it is nowhere near the conceptual
problem of being forced to associate a data type with only one
application and worse, to do it according to the file name.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:29:43 GMT
On Mon, 01 May 2000 00:50:29 -0500, John S. Dyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Paul wrote:
>
>> Let's say that a year from now MS has been broken up, and Linux is still a
>> standardless hodge-podge of sundry apps and distributions with
>> marginal driver and application support. Without the evil empire (Microsoft)
>> to blame for Linux's lack of appeal on the Desktop, who or what
>> will be blamed next? I'll be curious to see how it all unfolds....
>>
>> Paul
>
>It seems to be long-term self defeating to base a marketing strategy on
>the hatred of the competitor. If one wins the game, and the strategy was
>very successful, what happens when the competitor dies? :-).
>
>A problem with comparing free software against commercial software like
>Microsofts stuff is that many of the various features are so very different
>as to be really wierd to compare (e.g. redistribution costs and encumberances.)
>
>How is John Q. Public going to understand the cost of a copy of Microsoft
>software,
>vs. the GPL? (In the simplest sense, GPL does provide *some* advantages to
>the customer, but the average Joe isn't going to really understand all of the
>ramifications.)
Costs $0, Costs $0 tomorrow.
Versus.
Costs $100 today, Costs $100 more tomorrow.
That's not likely to confound the common consumer.
[deletia]
That mentality helped DOS, now that mentality will hinder it.
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:33:33 GMT
On Mon, 1 May 2000 04:44:57 -0600, Paul Bary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Standardless: Examples...Try installing an application on several different
>distro's and you will get widely
>varying results based on kernel version, library version and included
>libraries. No common installation
>routine or package management routine.
There are package managers for each and package archives available
for each. For commercial applications, there are indeed common
graphical installers available with a 'lowest common denominator'
possible in libraries and the kernel.
The notion that the kernel would be an issue for an application
install is just a good demonstration that you're a shill aping
someone else's bad gossip.
>
>Marginal Support: Example...No support for my Orb drive, Intel video camera
>(at least that I can find, and IF it exists I doubt it would be a fully
That sounds much like Win2K actually.
I could be a description of an iMac as well.
>functional as my included Windows software), widely varying results
>on installation with even a common sound card such as the basic Ensoniq PCI.
>As to apps...no Quicken
Much of Quicken's (and turbotax) functionality is available via
the web these days. It may or may not be a show stopper that
native binaries aren't available for Linux.
[deletia]
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:35:57 GMT
On 1 May 2000 10:27:27 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <Du8P4.3672$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Let's say that a year from now MS has been broken up, and Linux is still a
>>standardless hodge-podge of sundry apps and distributions with
>>marginal driver and application support. Without the evil empire (Microsoft)
>>to blame for Linux's lack of appeal on the Desktop, who or what
>>will be blamed next? I'll be curious to see how it all unfolds....
>
>I think you have confused standards with a lack of choice. Real
>standards are not imposed by a single vendor.
...although it would be nice if KDE supported xdnd NOW, or even
better yet: Motif dnd <snicker>.
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Government to break up Microsoft
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 02:02:00 +1000
"Jim Richardson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:51:45 -0700,
> btolder, in the persona of <btolder>,
> brought forth the following words...:
>
> >
> >"Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:8ei94p$mfs$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> :> Office will be broken up into a separate company. This company will
> >> :> be free to port Office to Linux, BeOS, PalmOS etc. Office, together
> >> : ^^^^^^
> >> : Office on Palm ? That'd be interesting....
> >>
> >> A very slimmed-down, voice-driven office suite for a Palm-like device
> >> would be extremely useful, especially in congested urban areas.
> >> Imagine dictating status reports, juggling and prioritizing budget
> >> items, and placing today's grocery store order while stuck in traffic
> >> or waiting for the train. All the pieces are already in place, just
> >> waiting for someone to tie them all together.
> >
> >
> >All the pieces are in place? Maybe, except for a multi-threaded OS that
> >supports multimedia and can juggle multiple tasks running at once.
> >
> >The Palm is so far from running anything worthwhile it isn't funny. I'm
> >amazed that Palm has foisted the exact same OS on the world for 5 years
now
> >(with zero real changes) and they still charge huge amounts to do so. And
> >people talk about MS slowing the market. Geez
> >
> >
>
>
> Don't diss my Palm man, :)
> It does exactly what I bought it for, take notes, keep appointments,
phone
> numbers and other contact info, play Rogue, teach me Kanji... Fits in my
shirt
> pocket and the batteries last longer than I imagined they would. (3-4weeks
of
> daily use, at least 30min to 1hr a day, I play rogue or read e-texts on
the
> train to work :)
I don't think anyone's disputing the Palm does these things _very_ well
(that's why I bought one).
But, Office on Palm ? I really don't see the point of a fully fledged
Office suite on what is essentially meant to be a fancy file-o-fax.
------------------------------
From: Robert Browder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Gates admits MS "engineers" suck?
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:53:33 GMT
In article <390d004e@news>,
"Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Scott Babb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:8eirru$sa6
> >
> > My pre-Microsoft CP/M machines didn't have reset buttons. Nor
> > have any Sun workstations I've ever used (from the 3/50 to the
> > current UltraSPARC models.) There may have been a reset button
> > somewhere in the plumbing of the IBM 3090, but I never found it.
> > I don't remember one on my old VAXstation, either.
>
> VAXes and VAXStations DID have "halt" buttons, which would stop the
> processor, essentially killing the OS, but you never pressed it until
the OS
> was completely shut down.
>
> > I think that
> > the original MacIntosh had a key sequence to reset the machine,
> > but I don't remember a button that flushed the brains on the CPU.
> > A key sequence would mean that enough of the OS was still working
> > to interpret that key sequence and do an orderly reboot. Grounding
> > a pin on the CPU means that you've given up hope of the OS ever
> > doing anything useful again.
>
> Which is exactly why MS-driven PCs need them! Hell, even Linux-driven
PCs
> need them. My little 486 print/web server crashed the other day due
to a
> hardware lockup, probably caused by static electricity (we have
HORRIBLE
> carpeting in my office.) X was locked and I couldn't do anything
(that I
> knew) to get control of the machine to shut it down. Reset and pray
the
> filesystem was recoverable was the only way to get it back.
>
> -- Rich C.
> "Great minds discuss ideas.
> Average minds discuss events.
> Small minds discuss people."
>
>
I've had X lock up on me a couple of times too. Usually hitting
<ALT><CTRL><F2> will return me to a login prompt where I can log in as
root and do an orderly shutdown.
Bobby Browder
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Government to break up Microsoft
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 02:08:12 +1000
"Nathan S. Grey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Otto wrote:
>
> > Or rather it was the "others" inability to gain wide spread acceptance.
They
> > didn't recognize that quality in itself doesn't make the product
successful.
> > Usability and price does on the other hand, the "good enough" platform
won.
> > If quality would be the sole criteria for buying a product, then
everybody
> > would drive $100K cars.
> >
> > Otto
>
> low price and usability? Windows flunks both of those criteria
Hardly. Notice the "and" in that sentence ?
> I rate MacOS the most usability (argue all you want, but remember, there
are
> people who buy macs because the mouse only has one button)
But MacOS ain't cheap (because you have to buy a Mac) and depending on your
criteria might not be better usability wise.
> and Linux cost a heckuvalot less than Win98se
But, it seems, isn't as usable. And again, depending, may not be as cheap
(if your time is money).
> Windows is about mediocrity, it's not particularly easy to use, it's not
free,
> it's not of any decent level of quality. It's just been hyped and
marketed, the
Windows is about meeting the needs of the *majority* the best. The
democratic OS, if you want. Or, alternatively, the "good enough" OS.
> american equivilent of shoving it down people's throats. OEMs were
threatened
> if they offered a system without windows preinstalled that cost less than
the
> same machine without windows. Windows "good enough" hardley, i prefer to
USE my
> computer, not babysit it for the 25th crash that day.
I prefer to use my computer as well, which is why I don't use Linux or MacOS
on my desktop. I have neither the time to buggerise around with the former,
nor to waste on the instability of the latter.
> Would you consider a
> hammer that broke everytime you hit a nail with it to be "good enough"?
Poor
> quality is poor quality, the only thing M$ can do is market (ie. lie to
> consumers).
If you can find a better quality OS offering as much to the majority of
users as Windows does, don't keep it to yourself.
> There are lemon laws that, if I bought a car that broke down as
> often as windows crashes, I could get my money back.
Assuming that it was a problem with the car.
> Besides, the average american consumer is a sheep, he/she buy what
everyone
> else is buying, pathetic but true.
------------------------------
From: Stephen Cornell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where is PostScript support??
Date: 01 May 2000 17:28:23 +0100
Lee Sau Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Convert the photos to EPS (Postscript 2 supports JPEG compression!)
> using the GIMP or xv and voila!.
My god, you're right! Given how aweful they looked when printed on a
PS printer, I assumed this would be horrific. Still rather slow to
display, though.
> You mean enclosing the contents of that signle slide inside a pair of
> "{\small " and "}" is _difficult_? And so is using "{\tiny " and "}"?
Changing the font size is rather more drastic - and much less
desirable - than just letting the text area be a little bigger.
> I agree, basically. However, whenever I found I need the above trick,
> I would think again about that side: am I putting too much on one
> single slide? Would it be better to split it into two? If so, how?
> Or am I not precise enough? Very often, I found it more appropriate
> to make the split, instead of using "\tiny ".
I agree that this is a question you should ask yourself. However,
sometimes the best solution *is* to add just a little more to a slide.
At least with dedicated presentation software this option is open to
you.
--
Stephen Cornell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax +44-1223-336644
University of Cambridge, Zoology Department, Downing Street, CAMBRIDGE CB2 3EJ
------------------------------
From: Stephen Cornell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Web page rendering Linux (KDE) vs. windows 2000
Date: 01 May 2000 17:33:36 +0100
"Jim Ross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> I know I'm being picky on this, but it would make Linux+X look much more
> professional,
> especially when viewing a presentation were the first slide usually contains
> a large font and a picture.
> Everyone notices I'm sure, if not understanding why it looks bad.
I may be wrong, but it looks to me as if the industry standard,
Powerpoint, doesn't use antialiased fonts, presumably for the sake of
speed. If you _must_ have antialiased fonts, try using pdf/acroread,
or perhaps Ovation, for your presentation.
--
Stephen Cornell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax +44-1223-336644
University of Cambridge, Zoology Department, Downing Street, CAMBRIDGE CB2 3EJ
------------------------------
From: GoD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,talk.politics
Subject: Re: Are we equal?
Date: 1 May 2000 11:35:04 -0500
JEDIDIAH wrote:
> On 1 May 2000 09:25:12 -0500, GoD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Elian was rescued from crazed anti casto fanatics.
> >These fanatics do not consider the life of a young boy important if he can be
> >used as a political propaganda tool.
> >
> >The officials were heavily armed because they really did not know what to expect
> >once they entered the house. The hooded driver feared for his safety and
> >livelihood if he was identified. Such is the strength of the Cuban community in
> >Miami.
> >This is the truth.
>
> Yeah, cops are really cowards and bullies not much different from
> the urban street roaming hoods they are supposedly meant to be a
> counter to.
>
Cops are not cowards nor bullies. They are people like you and me.
They are just trying to do their job and to make this place better for all.
Without cops, civilization could not exist.
We must thank a cop each and every time we meet one.
>
>
> |||
> / | \
>
> Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marty Dippel)
Subject: Re: X Windows must DIE!!!
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:37:32 GMT
>>Christopher Browne wrote:
>>> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when bytes256 would say:
>>> >Am I the only one here who thinks that X Windows is crap?
>>> >X Windows is extremely archaic, ridiculously bloated,
>>> >way too slow, and extremely hard to install.
>>> >
>>> >Let's get rid of it completely.
>>>
>>> Feel free.
>>>
>>> What were you planning to run distributed graphical applications on
>>> top of, as a replacement for X?
>>
>>I guess he may need to try the iMac...
>
> And this is an answer how?
>
> The iMac runs a graphical system that is controlled voraciously by Apple.
> It is _not_ a distributable system, whether we speak of MacOS8, MacOS9,
> or the (now NXHost-less, what with Adobe unwilling to license DPS) OS-X.
Yeah- let's throw out X and rewrite it. And NFS. And the filesystem(s).
And PGP. And SSH. And the printing system. And the man pages.
They all suck. Let's re-write it all, not document any of it, and proclaim
it all to be the new "standard". And then we can all wink knowingly at each
other, convinced that we've done something useful by creating a much cooler
*nix than any of the other *nixes. And *our* stuff won't suck at all, 'cause
we're so much smarter than the unimaginative twits that wrote the originals!
Never mind me- I'm just having a bad day. But it *does* seem this way to
me sometimes...
================================================================
Marty Dippel
Sr. Systems Analyst
High Energy Physics
The University of Chicago
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: 1 May 2000 11:43:23 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 1 May 2000 10:27:27 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>In article <Du8P4.3672$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Let's say that a year from now MS has been broken up, and Linux is still a
>>>standardless hodge-podge of sundry apps and distributions with
>>>marginal driver and application support. Without the evil empire (Microsoft)
>>>to blame for Linux's lack of appeal on the Desktop, who or what
>>>will be blamed next? I'll be curious to see how it all unfolds....
>>
>>I think you have confused standards with a lack of choice. Real
>>standards are not imposed by a single vendor.
>
> ...although it would be nice if KDE supported xdnd NOW, or even
> better yet: Motif dnd <snicker>.
It would have been nice if X had supported dnd, rendering for printers,
and remote audio from the start, but it didn't and it will take
a while for things to catch up. How does xdnd work when the
windows in question are from different machines?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To:
alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,talk.politics
Subject: Re: Are we equal?
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:51:44 GMT
On 1 May 2000 11:35:04 -0500, GoD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>> On 1 May 2000 09:25:12 -0500, GoD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >Elian was rescued from crazed anti casto fanatics.
>> >These fanatics do not consider the life of a young boy important if he can be
>> >used as a political propaganda tool.
>> >
>> >The officials were heavily armed because they really did not know what to expect
>> >once they entered the house. The hooded driver feared for his safety and
>> >livelihood if he was identified. Such is the strength of the Cuban community in
>> >Miami.
>> >This is the truth.
>>
>> Yeah, cops are really cowards and bullies not much different from
>> the urban street roaming hoods they are supposedly meant to be a
>> counter to.
>>
>
>Cops are not cowards nor bullies. They are people like you and me.
>They are just trying to do their job and to make this place better for all.
>Without cops, civilization could not exist.
>We must thank a cop each and every time we meet one.
Bullshit. Most are self serving powermad hoods that just happen to
have a uniform, a gun and carte blanche from the powers that be.
This is always quite evident should you ever be in a position where
those 'defenders of civilization' are ever in a position where they
think they can abuse you with impugnity.
[deletia]
Different gang, same attitude, same behaivor.
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: "Ermine Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Split Dude!
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:50:38 -0700
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
And don't forget that Judge Jackson is a Reagan appointee ... most of the
Appeals court judges actually were appointed by Clinton.
--ET--
"James A. Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> D'Arcy Smith wrote:
> >
> > "James A. Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > Same Justice department, same AG, same President. I draw conclusions
> > > based on the past actions of these people. Their past actions shows a
> > > distinct allergy to due process.
> >
> > Ummm... are you saying that the court case of DOJ vs. MS is
> > not "due process"?
>
> I'm saying that I trust absolutely <nothing> that comes from this
> Justice department, under this AG, under this President.
>
> And specific to this case, Judge Jackson has been slapped down on this
> turf by the Appeals Court not so long ago. Which is probably why
> Justice wants to fast track the case past the Appeals Court.
>
>
>
> >
> > ..darcy
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
