Linux-Advocacy Digest #326, Volume #26 Mon, 1 May 00 15:13:08 EDT
Contents:
Re: Who to blame next... (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Web page rendering Linux (KDE) vs. windows 2000 (Matthias Warkus)
Re: KDE is better than Gnome (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Government to break up Microsoft (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: KDE is better than Gnome (JEDIDIAH)
Re: KDE is better than Gnome (root)
Re: KDE is better than Gnome (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Who to blame next... (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: X Windows must DIE!!! (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Are we equal? (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Who to blame next... (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Who to blame next... (JEDIDIAH)
Re: KDE is better than Gnome (Roberto Alsina)
RFC, Software's Second Amendment (Michael Allan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:07:45 GMT
On 1 May 2000 11:43:23 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On 1 May 2000 10:27:27 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>In article <Du8P4.3672$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>>Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>Let's say that a year from now MS has been broken up, and Linux is still a
>>>>standardless hodge-podge of sundry apps and distributions with
>>>>marginal driver and application support. Without the evil empire (Microsoft)
>>>>to blame for Linux's lack of appeal on the Desktop, who or what
>>>>will be blamed next? I'll be curious to see how it all unfolds....
>>>
>>>I think you have confused standards with a lack of choice. Real
>>>standards are not imposed by a single vendor.
>>
>> ...although it would be nice if KDE supported xdnd NOW, or even
>> better yet: Motif dnd <snicker>.
>
>It would have been nice if X had supported dnd, rendering for printers,
That's a really assinine comment considering how long Motif DnD
has been around. It's a really crusty standard that anyone who
cared to could have supported a LONG time ago. Somehow the Gnome
and gtk guys managed to shove it in. Ditto for Xdnd.
QT being a commercial library and all one might think that they
could add such 'frills' (motif dnd support) for the entire $1000
per developer that you would be paying them as a commercial
developer.
>and remote audio from the start, but it didn't and it will take
>a while for things to catch up. How does xdnd work when the
It will be interesting to see who does that first: the cabal of
volunteers, or the cabal of volunteers hobbling along on some
commercial crutch of a widget library with a 6 month headstart.
>windows in question are from different machines?
I've never been in the position to try.
It's an interesting 'excuse' however.
[deletia]
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Subject: Re: Web page rendering Linux (KDE) vs. windows 2000
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:30:05 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:05:48 -0400...
...and Jim Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[FUD and lies]
> The Gnome browser Express is poor (does it even attempt to render a
> table???).
Express has died a looong time ago. You should go and checkout
Nautilus' built-in Web browser.
[FUD and lies]
mawa
--
Everybody lies about sex. IT'S IN THE MANUAL.
-- unintentional juxtaposition in George Lin's follow-up of Adam
Hill's posting. RTFM before fibbing, I guess.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.kde,tw.bbs.comp.linux
Subject: Re: KDE is better than Gnome
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:24:03 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:14:56 GMT...
...and Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...just another reason to await (or even help) GNOME become
> > more stable...
>
> You know, if I believed you would actually go and code for GNOME,
> I would respect you much more. But so far, you seem to me a poser,
> and nothing else. Just blah blah blah from you.
I wish Jedi would just shut up. People like him are making the GNOME
community look like a rabid bunch of babbling KDE-haters.
Everybody listen up: He's not typical. Believe me.
mawa
--
The few folks actually working toward a goal of gender _equality_
rather than an _inversion_ of the gender power structure have mostly
abandoned the term `feminism' to the uncurably strident.
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Government to break up Microsoft
Date: 1 May 2000 12:35:38 -0500
In article <sBAN4.68553$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Otto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> This rather assumes the great lie that the vast majority of any of that
>> 90% ever had the opportunity to choose freely.
>
>And your statement is the great lie, assumes that the wast majority of the
>people was forced to buy the Windows platform. Let me just set the record
>straight, nobody is forced to buy any computer with Windows.
Forced is perhaps too strong a word. You could buy parts and assemble
them yourself if you wanted to avoid paying for pre-installed
windows from a brand name vendor.
>People do have
>a choice and they can choose freely.
But people have chosen not to accept the bundled MS package
and were unable to get a refund.
>The opportunities are there, always had been. Even for that
>90+%.
Has anyone successfully gotten their money back?
>> Windows is a mediocre desktop OS. It's immediate predecessor just
>> happened to become dominant due to market intertia.
>
>Or rather it was the "others" inability to gain wide spread acceptance. They
>didn't recognize that quality in itself doesn't make the product successful.
>Usability and price does on the other hand, the "good enough" platform won.
Really? Is the current investigation about usability and price?
>If quality would be the sole criteria for buying a product, then everybody
>would drive $100K cars.
It isn't like the car market. No one vendor in the car market can
dictate what the major retailers must bundle by threatening to
withold or raise the price on a critical component.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.kde,tw.bbs.comp.linux
Subject: Re: KDE is better than Gnome
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:43:37 GMT
On Mon, 1 May 2000 14:24:03 +0200, Matthias Warkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It was the Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:14:56 GMT...
>...and Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > ...just another reason to await (or even help) GNOME become
>> > more stable...
>>
>> You know, if I believed you would actually go and code for GNOME,
>> I would respect you much more. But so far, you seem to me a poser,
>> and nothing else. Just blah blah blah from you.
>
>I wish Jedi would just shut up. People like him are making the GNOME
>community look like a rabid bunch of babbling KDE-haters.
If you think I'm part of some mythical 'gnome community', you
haven't been paying attention these years.
Some of us actually like being able to use a variety of apps
from a variety of sources rather than simply eliminating
choices based on whether or not it's name starts with G or K.
Besides, I've been cutting KDE lots of slack lately. Although,
it seems that it was unwarranted.
>
>Everybody listen up: He's not typical. Believe me.
Certainly. I'm not some blind cheerleader.
If it sucks, I'll say so. The two major standard desktops being
incompatible at the DnD level certainly SUCKS.
I was quite foolish for ever taking that for granted.
You mean you wanted to interact with OTHER libraries: Sorry, you'll
have to pay an extra $1000 and get the next version...
In retrospect it's actually kind of funny that a $1000 per seat
commercial library didn't have as much legacy support as was
practical. Supporting unadulterated offix or Motif DnD wouldn't
have been too impractical. (someone else managed it)
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (root)
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.kde,tw.bbs.comp.linux
Subject: Re: KDE is better than Gnome
Date: 1 May 2000 17:49:44 GMT
[Posted and mailed]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>
> alike, and they generally work the same way too. Maybe these
> two groups should try and merge their GUI's to create one,
> hopefully superior, GUI for Linux.
agreed
> That, however, still leaves the question as whether you want
> a choice in GUI's for your desktop, or one standardized
> desktop. I think the latter should be the case so developers
> can concentrate on developing applications for that GUI.
Well, that would be fine as long as the standard was perfect and everyone
agreed on this. Doesn't sound likely somehow.
On the other hand, fvwm was pretty much a standard for ages, since it was
much better than anything else around (IMHO).
> Does anybody else have an opinion on this?
yes.
colin
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.kde,tw.bbs.comp.linux
Subject: Re: KDE is better than Gnome
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:57:31 GMT
On 1 May 2000 17:49:44 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[Posted and mailed]
>
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>
>> alike, and they generally work the same way too. Maybe these
>> two groups should try and merge their GUI's to create one,
>> hopefully superior, GUI for Linux.
>
>agreed
...that's not really necessary. However, cross compatibility
(that's actually implemented) would be quite useful. There's
lots of room to do things differently in a desktop while still
being compatible at some relevant lower level.
If you can pull an URL out of Netscape 4.7 and drop it on your
desktop, who really cares about the distinction between CDE and
GNOME?
>
>> That, however, still leaves the question as whether you want
>> a choice in GUI's for your desktop, or one standardized
>> desktop. I think the latter should be the case so developers
>> can concentrate on developing applications for that GUI.
>
>Well, that would be fine as long as the standard was perfect and everyone
>agreed on this. Doesn't sound likely somehow.
This is the essential problem with any 'one true interface'.
[deletia]
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: 1 May 2000 12:51:04 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>and remote audio from the start, but it didn't and it will take
>>a while for things to catch up. How does xdnd work when the
>
> It will be interesting to see who does that first: the cabal of
> volunteers, or the cabal of volunteers hobbling along on some
> commercial crutch of a widget library with a 6 month headstart.
GNU-based things have a long history of not caring about end users to
overcome before thinking about catching up with that 6 month head start.
Maybe someday...
>>windows in question are from different machines?
>
> I've never been in the position to try.
>
> It's an interesting 'excuse' however.
What good is a box that only runs things on the disk in front
of you? If I wanted a Mac, I'd get one.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: X Windows must DIE!!!
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:46:03 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Mon, 01 May 2000 16:37:32 GMT...
...and Marty Dippel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah- let's throw out X and rewrite it. And NFS. And the filesystem(s).
> And PGP. And SSH. And the printing system. And the man pages.
> They all suck. Let's re-write it all, not document any of it, and proclaim
> it all to be the new "standard". And then we can all wink knowingly at each
> other, convinced that we've done something useful by creating a much cooler
> *nix than any of the other *nixes. And *our* stuff won't suck at all, 'cause
> we're so much smarter than the unimaginative twits that wrote the originals!
If you strike "not document any", this sounds like the stance of the
VMS developers -- or the Windows developers, for that matter :)
mawa
--
But when she was with Chacko, old limits were pushed back. Horizons
expanded. She had never before met a man who spoke of the world [...]
in the way other men she knew discussed [...] their weekends at the
beach. -- Arundhati Roy, _The_God_of_Small_Things_
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Crossposted-To:
alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,talk.politics
Subject: Re: Are we equal?
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:36:59 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Mon, 01 May 2000 08:44:36 -0400...
...and unicat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Then there is Elian Gonzales, an innocent little boy, whose only
> crime is being born hispanic, and he is considered so dangerous that
> he must be arrested by heavily armed members of Reno's Sturmgewehr.
Idiot. If you insist on using German words, you should at least go to
the trouble of looking up what they mean beforehand.
Hint hint: "Sturmgewehr" means "assault gun".
mawa
--
"Me Too!" is a trademark of America Online, Inc.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:44:06 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the 1 May 2000 11:43:23 -0500...
...and Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It would have been nice if X had supported dnd, rendering for printers,
> and remote audio from the start, but it didn't
Yep, and rightly so, because the X Windowing System is just that: a
windowing system, not more. There is no standard for what's supposed
to sit on top of that. BTW, X supports rendering to printers by the
latest protocol version, XFree86 even implements it, however, pretty
much nobody seems to use it.
I put a lot of hopes in gnome-print. It's pretty amazing what that API
can already do.
mawa
--
Got free software?
Want a German localisation done?
I can help you; I can understand
I'm your helping hand, your gettext man: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Who to blame next...
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:27:35 GMT
On 1 May 2000 12:51:04 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>and remote audio from the start, but it didn't and it will take
>>>a while for things to catch up. How does xdnd work when the
>>
>> It will be interesting to see who does that first: the cabal of
>> volunteers, or the cabal of volunteers hobbling along on some
>> commercial crutch of a widget library with a 6 month headstart.
>
>GNU-based things have a long history of not caring about end users to
>overcome before thinking about catching up with that 6 month head start.
>Maybe someday...
Then why is it that the more 'GNU-based' project is the one with
the legacy DND support? I can use Netscape in a fairly 'Win-ish'
way under GNOME. I can't under KDE.
Besides, KDE is less of a 'GNU-ish' project simply because it
was started around a commercial library.
>
>>>windows in question are from different machines?
>>
>> I've never been in the position to try.
>>
>> It's an interesting 'excuse' however.
>
>What good is a box that only runs things on the disk in front
>of you? If I wanted a Mac, I'd get one.
Unless you can give me a good example of this, you're just
spouting hot air. I don't give a damn about spinning cubes
with mpegs running on each side either.
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.kde,tw.bbs.comp.linux
Subject: Re: KDE is better than Gnome
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:24:20 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) wrote:
> On Mon, 1 May 2000 14:24:03 +0200, Matthias Warkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >It was the Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:14:56 GMT...
> >...and Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > ...just another reason to await (or even help) GNOME become
> >> > more stable...
> >>
> >> You know, if I believed you would actually go and code for GNOME,
> >> I would respect you much more. But so far, you seem to me a poser,
> >> and nothing else. Just blah blah blah from you.
> >
> >I wish Jedi would just shut up. People like him are making the GNOME
> >community look like a rabid bunch of babbling KDE-haters.
>
> If you think I'm part of some mythical 'gnome community', you
> haven't been paying attention these years.
Looks like the GNOME community (whoever they are) got lucky.
> Some of us actually like being able to use a variety of apps
> from a variety of sources rather than simply eliminating
> choices based on whether or not it's name starts with G or K.
Wow, that is even reasonable.
> Besides, I've been cutting KDE lots of slack lately. Although,
> it seems that it was unwarranted.
You cutting KDE slack? Oh, we are soooooo grateful.
> >
> >Everybody listen up: He's not typical. Believe me.
>
> Certainly. I'm not some blind cheerleader.
Are you saying blind cheerleaders are typical? Allow me
to differ.
> If it sucks, I'll say so. The two major standard desktops being
> incompatible at the DnD level certainly SUCKS.
Well, looks like you ARE typical, after all, at least on the ignorant
community.
> I was quite foolish for ever taking that for granted.
Well, I will not disagree about you being a fool, but let me say it
one more time: The DND protocol is agreed. After it is agreed, it
needs to be implemented on both sides. By chance it happens that there
has not been any new KDE versions since the agreement.
> You mean you wanted to interact with OTHER libraries: Sorry, you'll
> have to pay an extra $1000 and get the next version...
What the heck is that supposed to mean? Are you somehow implying,
in your obvious ignorance, that you need to pay someone $1000 to
make KDE's DND interact with GNOME's? Did you understand nothing
you read in this thread?
> In retrospect it's actually kind of funny that a $1000 per seat
> commercial library didn't have as much legacy support as was
> practical. Supporting unadulterated offix or Motif DnD wouldn't
> have been too impractical. (someone else managed it)
Yawn. Look at Qt 2.1. Look at DnD protocols supported. Look at how much
I paid to use it )ok, you can't look , $0.00.-).
You seem to be losing that tenuous grasp of reality, Jedi... time
to pack your light saber and go home, methinks.
--
Roberto Alsina (KDE developer, MFCH)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED], nospam=zelea (Michael Allan)
Subject: RFC, Software's Second Amendment
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 19:04:59 GMT
This is a request for comments from the open source community on an
article, which is currently in preparation:
SOFTWARE'S SECOND AMENDMENT
Technological, Economic and Political Foundations for a MacroComponent
Architecture
--- excerpt ---------
Macrocomponent software is designed to institute a shift in the control
and ownership of the software industry: from organizations to people;
from high finance and firms to individuals; from narrow centers of
industrial wealth to broader regions of the world.
=====================
(see http://www.macrocomponent.org/foundation.html for text completed to
date)
--
Michael Allan
[EMAIL PROTECTED], nospam=zelea
http://www.zelea.com/A/
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
