Linux-Advocacy Digest #578, Volume #26 Thu, 18 May 00 08:13:08 EDT
Contents:
Re: Here is the solution ("Daniel Johnson")
Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Your office and Linux. (Streamer)
Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Linux lacks (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: Your office and Linux. (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Beowulf (DeAnn Iwan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Here is the solution
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:48:07 GMT
"joseph" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8fvpov$teg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <ZBuU4.69987$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[snip]
> > > Q: How can a programmer use an API before it is part of the OS?
> >
> > Very carefully? :D
> >
> > > A: It's part of the application.
> >
> > It's possible
> ....
>
> It is possible but irrelvent being the issue are
> OS APIs and not APIs in general.
Actually, MS quite frequently makes its APIs available
separately from the OS. This may be a good or a bad
thing, but it is nevertheless true- you can often install
MS's new APIs in old versions of their OS.
Sometimes you can install them in entirely different
OSes, even. It's been known to happen.
[snip]
> > MS does that *all the time*.
>
> MS has the Apps divsion invent a service,
> code for the service in all there apps and
> then MS adds the sevice to the OS.
*If* this is true it puts MS's apps divisions at a
disadvantage! It means that whenever MS-apps
comes up with something good, MS-OS makes
it available to all of MS-apps competitors. The Office
team *cannot* be happy with that; they do all the work
and Corel or whomever gets to reap the benefits.
You know MS's competitors don't do that; since MS
does not own then, it can't make them turn over their
code this way.
> Only the owner the Os can decide
> so the fact the Apps divison gets special treatment
> is EVERYTHING.
Specially *bad* treatment. This is one reason I find this
implausible.
> > > MS's Apps group designs and implements the API and the OS group
includes
> > > it into Windows.
> >
> > There doesn't seem to be any evidence of this.
>
> Oh Yes there is!!
> MS even says they do it and they have a right to do
> it. They call it innovation.
They don't say that. Someone has already posted the
quote; it doesn't say that.
> > > MS's advantage begins when the app programmer is told
> > > he/she can add APIs to improve their product over the competitors.
> >
> > How does this help the app programmers product?
>
> How would It not?
It gives all the hard work of the app programmers to their
competitors. That's not very nice.
> Better yet we'll take a test and prove I'm smarter
> than you - I write the test.
:D
But you also give me the answers, right?
> > It would seem to me
> > that exposing neat technologies to once competitors is not a good
> > way to get an edge over them. Far better to implement whatever
> > is in the API as part of the app, and not share it with outsiders.
>
> It can suite MS's interests to share APIs
> AFTER MS ues them to establish ther dominance.
Sure.
> OLE helped PPoint beat Harvard Graphics. later OLE
> was opened up for ISVs like VISIO to wriwe add-ins
> for Office.
Okay. Now, what you are saying is that since OLE is an Office
technology, it *should not* have been made part of the OS;
so the technology *should* have remained Office-only
and VISIO should not have been permitted to write add
ins.
Is this *just* because OLE makes Windows better? Is that
the *only* objection?
Cuz it sure doesn't seem like making an Office technology
available to all is this horrible anticompetitive thing.
> > Seems like moving code from the apps to the OS *reduces* the
> > apps advantage by letting *other* app vendors use that same
> > code- even if belatedly.
> >
> > If this is happening, then it is reducing the advantage Office has
> > over its competitors.
> No, it can also let ms build a greater advantage by
> ltting 3rd partis write helper aps for MS offie.
Well, it does that *too*. But what I said is still true.
[snip]
> Your example is nuts being the data show MS makes huge profit
> margins on the OS.
Well, probably. But that would just mean MS is lying.
> You also are saying that MS is subsidizng
> OS developmet with office apps - that means they are
> dumping software - illegal.
That certainly should not be illegal.
[snip]
> > > And the Scarecrow didn't have a brain until he got his diploma.
> >
> > The chief things that distinguishes an API from A Bunch of Random
> > Code it is that it is *stable*;
>
> The apps division is assured the API is stable
> being they are allowed to decide within MS what is engineered
> into windows.
Well, when we are talking about Office technologies moved
into Windows, the fact it that this makes the Office folks vulnerable
to API changes. If it turns out not to be stable enough, they get
burned. If the technology was just part of Office, this would not
happen because any upgrade of the one would involve an
upgrade of the other, as well.
This kind of technology uptake is good for Windows and
good for 3rd party application developers, but it is bad for
Microsoft's own apps division.
[snip]
> > In this case, the Scarecrow really *doesn't* get his brain until
> > he gets his diploma- because without the diploma, it is just
> > so much straw.
>
> names and word games with API don't change anything.
> APIs are APIs by vitrute of what they do, not by
> playing word games to redefine the term.
This is just not so. Calling a thing an API because it looks like one
and acts like one in this version of Windows is a bad idea- if you
use it, you'll get burned when Microsoft changes it.
Consider the difficulties SAMBA has faced. These guys have
*insisted* that they consider the wire protocol NT uses to talk
to domain controllers as part of the API. Its equivalent *is* part
of the API in Unix-land, after all.
But it is *not* part of Windows API, and consequentely Microsoft
feels free to change it over and over- and they do. And SAMBA keeps
on breaking whenever they do.
SAMBA's experience demonstrates that calling something an API
does not make it so. If Microsoft doesn't see it as such, it won't
be stable.
------------------------------
From: Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:53:56 GMT
Full Name wrote:
>
> After three Linux experiences, two on notebooks the other on a desk
> top, our central computing supervisor has withdrawn support for Linux.
>
> On Thu, 18 May 2000 01:12:51 GMT, TheKeyMan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >First off, Linux is a good system when it is used in the proper
> >setting and under the guidance of people who actually understand the
> >system. With that point considered, my company, a small real estate
> >company with 10 offices in the northeast USA began a study late last
> >year to try and consolodate our network and quite frankly save some
> >money.
First off we see he says it's a GOOD system.
> >We hired several consultants as well as a manager whose job it was to
> >oversee the study and identify, religious affiliations, obvious bias
> >and just plain FUD.
It really sounds like your office is a screwed up mess.
> >
> >Initially our plan was to jump to Linux hook line and sinker because
> >it seemed to offer, on the surface, most of what we needed in a
> >typical office setting. We understood that we would have to maintain
> >NT to serve our somewhat vertical applications. The initial plan was
> >to setup Linux in the office as a secondary system that the personal
> >could utilize at will. Sort of a duplicate system if you will.
> >This failed terribly because nobody seemed interested in using Linux
> >which puzzled the staff. They went for Windows every time despite
> >having dual boot computers.
Windows is internationally known as the operating system for people who
don't know how to use computers. It empowered tens of thousands to
use computers who would otherwise not be capable of doing so.
It made systems administrators out of people who normally were golf
caddies,
security guards or just plain old hustlers.
> >
> >Upon quizzing the staff we discovered many things amongst them the
> >reasons why Linux was not liked.
Yes.
> >
> >To put it bluntly, Linux Looks like shit. The fonts are jagged and
> >boxy. Staroffice is a complete bloated mess of a joke compared to
> >Office.
Internesting. I wonder why everytime I get somebody to use it, they
thank me for life and always write me via E-mail.
I guess the people I have for freinds must be fucking idiots then.
They are definitely not religious fanatics...
> >Netscape looks like crap and performs like crap also.
Oh, I don't think this has ever been true.
> >
> >Our imported Word/Excel doc's did not transfer well at all into
> >StarOffice.
This is true but it's because Microsoft had to HIDE their formats
so you'll HAVE TO DO BUSINESS with THEM!
> >
> >We had severe network performance problems after installing Linux.
This is total bullshit. I've run NT and Linux together before.
The only thing which you can tell is the Linux boxes have a slight edge.
> >
> >People, meaning end users generally hated Linux big time. Funny thing
> >was they were so willing to talk about why they hated it so much.
Some people have to have a tit in their mouth every step of the way to
be comfy.
> >
> >I could go on and on but there is really no need. Linux is an
> >operating system that needs a lot of work. We tried and could not make
> >it work.
We appreciate your UNBIASED opinion.
I'm glad you never used the words religious and Biased anywhere as I
might feel this document was a stinking pantload of crap.
> >
> >I have talked to others in my industry that have had similar
>experiences with Linux so I know it is not my company..
Wonder if you talked to Chrysler, Mercedes, Ford or GM, or how about
Siemens?
> >
> >Linux needs a lot of help...
> >
> >
I think you need alot of help.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: Streamer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Your office and Linux.
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 06:57:28 -0500
John Travis wrote:
>
> Charlie, I'm afraid I have some bad news. Linus just called and he
> wants you to stop using linux immediately. He thinks you are
> embarrassing the rest of us (go figure). He has even threatened to
> start a petition (which he assures me every linux user will sign), just
> to get you to stop posting this crap.
>
> jt
John, I have even worse news for you. M$ has decided to charge for the
cost of registering your Windows2K, so if you don't pay up within 2 days of
registering, they'll turn off your software and scan your disk drive for
other M$ programs to deactivate. Also, M$ has also decided to increase
their per year licensing fees for W2K, so you will have to register your
W2K software twice in the same year. On top of that, You still don't get
all the features of W2K enabled until you renew your newly expired MSCE
<bet you didn't know it could expire>.
BTW M$ wants to fine you for posting in a linux.advocacy group (and making
winvocates look like idiots), therefore your licensing fee for W2K will
include a 150% increase and mandatory M$ community service were you must
sit through many hours of M$ seminars touting how programs like notepad is
the wave of the future. You have to pay seperately for the course on M$
Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt management.
------------------------------
From: Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:58:17 GMT
John Travis wrote:
>
> TheKeyMan wrote:
> >
> > First off, Linux is a good system when it is used in the proper
> > setting and under the guidance of people who actually understand the
> > system. With that point considered, my company, a small real estate
> > company with 10 offices in the northeast USA began a study late last
> > year to try and consolodate our network and quite frankly save some
> > money.
> > We hired several consultants as well as a manager whose job it was to
> > oversee the study and identify, religious affiliations, obvious bias
> > and just plain FUD.
> >
> > Initially our plan was to jump to Linux hook line and sinker because
> > it seemed to offer, on the surface, most of what we needed in a
> > typical office setting. We understood that we would have to maintain
> > NT to serve our somewhat vertical applications. The initial plan was
> > to setup Linux in the office as a secondary system that the personal
> > could utilize at will. Sort of a duplicate system if you will.
> > This failed terribly because nobody seemed interested in using Linux
> > which puzzled the staff. They went for Windows every time despite
> > having dual boot computers.
> >
> > Upon quizzing the staff we discovered many things amongst them the
> > reasons why Linux was not liked.
> >
> > To put it bluntly, Linux Looks like shit. The fonts are jagged and
> > boxy. Staroffice is a complete bloated mess of a joke compared to
> > Office.
> > Netscape looks like crap and performs like crap also.
> >
> > Our imported Word/Excel doc's did not transfer well at all into
> > StarOffice.
> >
> > We had severe network performance problems after installing Linux.
> >
> > People, meaning end users generally hated Linux big time. Funny thing
> > was they were so willing to talk about why they hated it so much.
> >
> > I could go on and on but there is really no need. Linux is an
> > operating system that needs a lot of work. We tried and could not make
> > it work.
> >
> > I have talked to others in my industry that have had similar
> > experiences with Linux so I know it is not my company..
> >
> > Linux needs a lot of help...
>
> If any of this is really true then you are a complete idiot. Why don't
> you just sit the next dumb ass down in front of a unix box with
> everything in chinese? No shit they used the windows machines. Why
> would they use something they have probably never even seen before let
> alone worked with? I truly hope all of this was just a troll because if
> not...you, your company execs, and those consultants are totally and
> utterly morons.
>
> jt
I have to agree with JT and the other messages I've read so far in
support
of Linux.
This kind man must have a brain tumor the size of an orange to make the
statements he's made.
Which get's us to another part of Microsoft which is a pantload from the
past via IBM. Customer loyalty.
Because it turned the average street bumb into an
administrator/operator,
Microsoft has made a tremendous following in the last 20 years.
People are proud of their operating system, despite the fact it's a blue
screening mess, which has been proven NOT to have an ability to handle a
load, which can't multitask equally, which appears that it's very own
users and supporters have voluntarily cut it off from the internet in
an effort to stop viruses!
The Microsoft cult is a very strange one.
This man is but one example of the Microcrap generation.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: Linux lacks
Date: 18 May 2000 11:48:35 GMT
In article <Ha7U4.455$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
David Cueto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When I talk, I've tested. IE5 has not ever frozen at my Windows 2000
> box. My Netscape under GNU/Linux has been freezing since 3.0 every
> day (Java and Javascript, even sometimes without them). That is a fact.
The trouble is that what you say proves nothing beyond the fact that
it works for you. Peoples mileage really does vary. e.g. I don't see
Netscape lockups on any of Linux, Solaris and '9[58] but I've had
problems with IE on some of those platforms. Does this mean that
either of our experiences are valueless (w.r.t. browser quality)? No,
but it should serve to warn us not to over-generalise. Variation of
personal experience is the norm...
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- I may seem more arrogant, but I think that's just because you didn't
realize how arrogant I was before. :^)
-- Jeffrey Hobbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Your office and Linux.
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:04:59 GMT
Streamer wrote:
>
> John Travis wrote:
>
> >
> > Charlie, I'm afraid I have some bad news. Linus just called and he
> > wants you to stop using linux immediately. He thinks you are
> > embarrassing the rest of us (go figure). He has even threatened to
> > start a petition (which he assures me every linux user will sign), just
> > to get you to stop posting this crap.
> >
> > jt
>
> John, I have even worse news for you. M$ has decided to charge for the
> cost of registering your Windows2K, so if you don't pay up within 2 days of
> registering, they'll turn off your software and scan your disk drive for
> other M$ programs to deactivate. Also, M$ has also decided to increase
> their per year licensing fees for W2K, so you will have to register your
> W2K software twice in the same year. On top of that, You still don't get
> all the features of W2K enabled until you renew your newly expired MSCE
> <bet you didn't know it could expire>.
>
> BTW M$ wants to fine you for posting in a linux.advocacy group (and making
> winvocates look like idiots), therefore your licensing fee for W2K will
> include a 150% increase and mandatory M$ community service were you must
> sit through many hours of M$ seminars touting how programs like notepad is
> the wave of the future. You have to pay seperately for the course on M$
> Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt management.
Are you saying Bill Gates is starting a petition of his own to get
JT's head pulled out of his ass?
Charlie
------------------------------
From: DeAnn Iwan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Beowulf
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:06:14 -0400
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mlw wrote:
>
> DeAnn Iwan wrote:
> >
>
> I suspected that this what was meant, but I did not want to assume. MPI
> does this as well.
>
>
Do try looking at the comp.parallel.x groups: there is a lot of
expertise there that can help you out.
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