Linux-Advocacy Digest #336, Volume #27 Sun, 25 Jun 00 18:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Do not like Windows but ... ("Pedro Iglesias")
Re: Where is Linux going? (Syed Farhan Ali)
Re: Run Linux on your desktop? Why? I ask for proof, not advocacy (Gary Hallock)
Re: Linux, easy to use? (abraxas)
Re: [JOB] Debian installer needed near Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. ("Andrew E.
Schulman")
Re: Do not like Windows but ... (Mig Mig)
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Mig Mig)
Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages) (Mig Mig)
Re: stability of culture of helpfulness (Doc Shipley)
Re: Do not like Windows but ... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS? ("Kevin Holmes")
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Darren Winsper)
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Darren Winsper)
Re: Astroturf Ad From "Trustix" -was- Linux is easier now (Tore Olsen)
Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages) (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Pete Goodwin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Do not like Windows but ...
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:01:08 GMT
nowadays :
winamp is better than xmms or whatever on Linux
word is better than startoffice or whatever on Linux (wordperfect,
abiword, ...)
multimedia and games are better than on Linux
photoshop is better than GIMP (besides at Windows there are a lot of good
ones)
mame goes better (DOS or Windows) than Linux one
explorer is better than netscape
eudora is better than whichever Linux program
outlook express is better than whatever Linux news reader
development tools are much more better under Windows
what does remain ?
yeah, Linux is very cheap and very stable and very secure (depends on
administator),
but, what to use it for nowadays that can't be done more productively under
Windows ?
------------------------------
From: Syed Farhan Ali <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is Linux going?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:01:24 +0500
Salvador Peralta wrote:
>
> Cihl wrote:
> >
> > You forgot something. Both Gnome and KDE are, right at this moment,
> > working on office suites.
imho, staroffice is a good choice. i have heard some ppl moaning about
'so' not completely compatible with msoffice. well!!! i give a damn if
its not compatible
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:21:49 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Run Linux on your desktop? Why? I ask for proof, not advocacy
Tim Palmer wrote:
>
>
> If they're allreddy in Windows, why would they want the option to boot Linux to run
>there Windows app?
>
Perhaps, like me, Windows can't handle the majority of the work they do while Linux
can. The occasional Windows app can then be run on Linux without a reboot necessary.
> ...but rather a few sharware versions of crap from TUCOWS will run, whial WINE
>would choke on any large, full-feetured program and take X Windows and the consoal
>down with it.
>
I run Lotus Notes under wine on Linux with no problems. X and the "consoal" have no
problems with that. Do you consider Notes to be a
"full-feetured program"?
> Can you immbed VB scripts? Didn't think so.
>
And you consider being able to imbed VB scripts a virtue?
>
>
> ...and NT 4.0 was registering 99.999% uptimes on at least twice that manny.
>
What are you smoking? Do you have any idea what 99.999% uptime is?
>
>
> Tell me when Linnux can actually drive moar then 4 processers like Linux 2.2 was
>suppost to.
>
Well, I've got the 2.2.14 kernel driving 12 processors with no problem.
>
>
> But that's only becaze there down most of the time for kernal recompiles.
>
Lie all you want. It doesn't make it true.
>
>
> And noboddy want's to either.
>
I do.
Now, Tim, you really do have to stop lying. You never did admit that you were dead
wrong about Linux for S/390 requiring VM.
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: Linux, easy to use?
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:36:10 GMT
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (2:1) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>> I am aware of the distinction that Linux and KDE are two seperate
>>> objects. However, it does not seem unreasonable to me to lump the two
>>> together as KDE is an example of a Windowing system on Linux.
>>
>>X is the windowing system. KDE is a desktop.
>
> Linux I see as a complete system. I lump all of X, KDE and Gnome together.
You are seeing linux incorrectly. There are no opinions here, there is FACT,
and there is FALSEHOOD.
> In Windows case there is DOS and Windows, but DOS is pretty much ignorable
> (I know it's there) and Windows can be treated as one package. So,
> naturally, I lump Linux together as Linux, X and KDE. I'm looking at it as
> an alternative to Windows.
Youre incorrect.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: "Andrew E. Schulman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: [JOB] Debian installer needed near Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:38:46 -0400
This is one of the stranger postings I've seen in newsgroups.
------------------------------
From: Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Do not like Windows but ...
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:06:41 +0200
Well Pedro... How about defining how you quantify the word better.
Pedro you seem to forget that the vast majority of Linux/*BSD users come
from the Windows world and still use Windows to some degree. Basiclly all
your "arguments" are invalid.
Pedro Iglesias wrote:
>
> nowadays :
> winamp is better than xmms or whatever on Linux
I find Linux mp3 players to be better and more configurable on my system.
P120 64MB Linux ones are good Windows ones not even OK.
> word is better than startoffice or whatever on Linux (wordperfect,
> abiword, ...)
Word is OK for 1-10 pages documents without graphics but fails miserably
thereafter - Im a victim of Word 6.0 and had a very very hard time to fix a
250 page doc so that i could print my work. Very very bad wordprocessor..
but hey some people think it looks good.
But dont take my advice for it, do your own test with the latest
incarnation of Word and play a bit with lists (numbered and unmumbered
under eachother) and then come back and tell me if you still think Word is
a "good" app ;-)
Lyx/Klyx, texmacs (yeah even this one), Wordperfect, StarOffice (not my
favorite) are by far more stable and more productive applications than
Word.
> multimedia and games are better than on Linu
Youre right on this one.. But multimedia is bettor on the MAC and games are
better on game consoles... So Windows is second from bottom on this one
> photoshop is better than GIMP (besides at Windows there are a lot of good
> ones)
Yeah... you cant beat PhotoSjhop Tryed Paint Shop and its no match for the
GIMP- at least for my needs and taste
> mame goes better (DOS or Windows) than Linux one
Whats that?
> explorer is better than netscape
Hmmm... when i use NT at work i allways use Netscape.... i just find it
better then IE
> eudora is better than whichever Linux program
Taste.. i actually never used Eudora on Windows... i prefer Outlook Express
despite the funny bugs.
> outlook express is better than whatever Linux news reader
Huhh.. bad boy... It cant even beat my version of Knode that is under heavy
development. Its pretty stable and is a much faster threader and filterer
than OE for news... I even find PAN to be much better.. i think on this one
its very easy to argument against OE.
> development tools are much more better under Windows
How??
> what does remain ?
>
> yeah, Linux is very cheap and very stable and very secure (depends on
> administator),
> but, what to use it for nowadays that can't be done more productively under
> Windows ?
This one like the one above must be decided by people that develop
intensively for both platforms. You might get surprised.
------------------------------
From: Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:12:37 +0200
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mig Mig) wrote in <8j5jhk$g9e$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >Ohhh... my dear.. you've never upgraded from win 95 to win 98?
> >Try it - it can be a thrilling experience :-)
>
> Yeah, did that, no real problems.
So "no real problems" means that there where some problems :-)
You didnt notice anything funny with newtworking components like strange
winsock behaviour and a faulty TCP/IP stack? And not even anything "funny"
happenning to IE after installation?
Congratulations.. as one of the few that manage that without any problems.
------------------------------
From: Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:20:43 +0200
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> My claim is simple - man pages do not have hyperlinks. They have underlined
> keywords but no way to jump to those topics other than restarting man
> itself. I've found man -k is not terribly useful either, and apropos is not
> much better.
They have... and this has been pointed to you again and again-
> I've found the MSDN database an invaluable tool for Windows. As a system
> its what man pages should be, but isn't.
Man pages are an invaluable tool... as with anyother powerfull tool it has
to be learned.
MSDN: It really depends on how you useit and to what purpose. I understand
that youre a programmer.. so is there any documentation about the hidden
API's ? Is there any information about fileformats.. lets say the last Word
version? How can you as a programmer be satisfied with that and call it an
exvellent tool when not even stuff used by MS own applications for years is
revealed to the public?
The way i use it - problem solutions - dejanews is much much better than
KB... if one is capable of sorting the garbage out.. its nearly allways
possible to find the right solution.
------------------------------
From: Doc Shipley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: stability of culture of helpfulness
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:22:29 GMT
Tim Palmer wrote:
>
> <snip much illiterate garbage>
>
> Maybe youd be abal to rite better coad to.
This has GOT to be a joke.
--
Doc Shipley
Network Stuff
Austin, Earth
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Do not like Windows but ...
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:30:00 GMT
All your personal opinion. I like Applix FAR better than anything MS
puts out. I costs less and is NOT bloated with a bunch of Sh*t that I'll
never use! Also, Gimp meets *my* needs at far less cost! Outlook express
a better news reader???? I think not!
Wow what a great choice linux is, it has every thing *I* need a MUCH
lower cost!!!
Now, lets talk servers! Linux blows the socks of w2k in many areas NOW
and will be even better when the 2.4 kernel is released!
By troll.
In article <8yt55.217$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> nowadays :
>
> winamp is better than xmms or whatever on Linux
> word is better than startoffice or whatever on Linux (wordperfect,
> abiword, ...)
> multimedia and games are better than on Linux
> photoshop is better than GIMP (besides at Windows there are a lot
of good
> ones)
> mame goes better (DOS or Windows) than Linux one
> explorer is better than netscape
> eudora is better than whichever Linux program
> outlook express is better than whatever Linux news reader
> development tools are much more better under Windows
>
> what does remain ?
>
> yeah, Linux is very cheap and very stable and very secure (depends
on
> administator),
> but, what to use it for nowadays that can't be done more productively
under
> Windows ?
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Kevin Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS?
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:47:34 -0900
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Secretly Cruel
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Linux is a fine little OS if you have the time for it... I don't.
>
> Eh? I'm new to it all and had a fully functional home workstation set up
> in an hour. Sure, I've still got a lot to learn but I can do anything I
> did on my Windows machine.
GNU/Linux does take more time to set up properly and learn. Some of
the hardware is troublesome getting to install. You often have to
RTFM which is definitedly not light reading. Some of the distributions
don't set things up properly or securely. Like having all those services
enabled by default. At least Windows doesn't have daemons that you
need to worry about (only email clients :).
> ---
> Secretly Cruel (note antispam string in email address)
>
> Your motherboard wears combat reboots
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Darren Winsper)
Crossposted-To:
misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 25 Jun 2000 21:57:54 GMT
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:25:52 GMT, MK
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 25 Jun 2000 15:48:11 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (Darren Winsper) wrote:
>
> >On 23 Jun 2000 18:21:08 GMT, Henry Blaskowski
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> If I want to sell certain
> >> unapproved pharmaceuticals, that is nobody's business but mine
> >> and the person I made the agreement with.
> >
> >Not always. Does the term passive smoking mean anything to you?
>
> Do the terms "negative externality" and "fallacy of composition"
> mean anything to you?
The problem is things always have external effects. A lot of
"unapproved pharmaceuticals" are so addictive that they could cause
people to turn violent and/or to theft/robbery to get money for those
"unapproved pharmaceuticals". This will affect other people.
--
Darren Winsper (El Capitano) - ICQ #8899775
Stellar Legacy project member - http://www.stellarlegacy.tsx.org
DVD boycotts. Are you doing your bit?
This message was typed before a live studio audience.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Darren Winsper)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 25 Jun 2000 21:57:53 GMT
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:29:11 GMT, MK
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 25 Jun 2000 15:48:09 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (Darren Winsper) wrote:
> >In the area I live in, I cannot get cable. I cannot get a phone line
> >installed by anyone other than BT. If BT wasn't regulated, I doubt
> >they would have leased out their lines like they have and I would have
> >no choice but to use BT as my phone company. This would mean I
> >wouldn't be able to afford much more than a few hours per month on the
> >internet.
>
> Either phone companies did not yet invest where you live or there has to be
> some law stopping them to.
When BT was privatised it owned the entire telephony infrastructure.
Because of this, the govt. thought that the barrier to entry for
competitors was too great so they decided to regulate BT to encorage
start-ups by making BT lease out their lines.
> It was for example the case with some sort
> of mobile telephony -- there was excitement about this British company named
> "Iona" or something like that (unfortunately can't remember the name) bc
> it has had promising technology supposedly enabling it to circumvent
> the BT monopoly in this particular area.
I think it was Ionica. Basically, they were one of BT's first real
competitors. They used radio and satelite as much as possible IIRC so
they could use the least amount of BT's infra-structure, the idea being
to give as little money to BT as possible.
Ionica went bankrupt somewhere around 2 years ago now.
> >BT still own the local loop, so each and every phone company I could
> >use would still be giving money to BT. In fact, the local loop will
> >not be opened up for another year. Thanks to BT dragging its feet,
> >it's looking like where I live probably won't get ASDL at all for
> >around 18-24 months, yet alone at a reasonable price.
>
> Privatising without letting other operators in is a pretty stupid idea.
Perhaps, but I don't know the whole deal about the original
privatisation because I was very young at the time.
> I don't
> think BT suddenly stopped trying to keep competition out just bc
> lawmakers said so,
What's happened is BT have reached an agreement with Oftel to open up
the local loop in 12 months time. The EU court sees this as too long
and is trying to make it before Christmas IIRC.
> it is probable that they're trying to use the law
> to retain practical monopoly
They would love to retain a practical monopoly, but that's unlikely.
I believe the whole idea was to privatise the phone network and bring
about competition without splitting BT up, since that would likely just
bring geographical monopolies rather than any real competition.
--
Darren Winsper (El Capitano) - ICQ #8899775
Stellar Legacy project member - http://www.stellarlegacy.tsx.org
DVD boycotts. Are you doing your bit?
This message was typed before a live studio audience.
------------------------------
From: Tore Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Astroturf Ad From "Trustix" -was- Linux is easier now
Date: 26 Jun 2000 00:00:43 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark S. Bilk) writes:
> The author of the article below pretends to be some random
> user, but is actually posting from the company, "Trustix",
> that sells the software he is recommending (as can be seen
> from the NNTP-Posting-Host header).
I already sent Mr Bilk a mail about this, but I'd like to apologize on
behalf of Trustix to all the readers of c.o.l.advocacy about this
incident. We are working hard to create good products, and hate to see
the results of our work ruined by misguided marketing people. I hope
that you accept our apology and I guarantee this will not happen
again.
And no, I didn't write this just because the spam was discovered. I
mean it.
--
Tore Olsen mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Development Manager phone: +47 73545054
Trustix AS fax: +47 73545053
------------------------------
Subject: Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:04:57 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mig Mig) wrote in <8j5svo$3lj$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>They have... and this has been pointed to you again and again-
Man does not support hyperlinks.
>> I've found the MSDN database an invaluable tool for Windows. As a
>> system its what man pages should be, but isn't.
>
>Man pages are an invaluable tool... as with anyother powerfull tool it
>has to be learned.
What's to learn? man topic, man -k keyword. There's more?
>MSDN: It really depends on how you useit and to what purpose. I
>understand that youre a programmer.. so is there any documentation about
>the hidden API's ? Is there any information about fileformats.. lets say
>the last Word version? How can you as a programmer be satisfied with
>that and call it an exvellent tool when not even stuff used by MS own
>applications for years is revealed to the public?
Why should I care about hidden API's? I've been managing perfectly well
without them.
Why should I care about the file format of Word?
It _is_ an excellent tool for learning about Windows and its API.
>The way i use it - problem solutions - dejanews is much much better than
>KB... if one is capable of sorting the garbage out.. its nearly allways
>possible to find the right solution.
I use it as one of many tools for problem solutions. USENET is another.
Pete
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:06:11 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mig Mig) wrote in <8j5sgi$2io$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>So "no real problems" means that there where some problems :-)
>You didnt notice anything funny with newtworking components like strange
>winsock behaviour and a faulty TCP/IP stack? And not even anything "funny"
>happenning to IE after installation?
TCP/IP worked fine. Actually it improved the dial up networking no end.
I don't use IE, I use Netscape.
>Congratulations.. as one of the few that manage that without any problems.
As one of the _many_ that managed without any problems.
Pete
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:03:21 -0400
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:39:49 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote:
>>Sounds a lot like a Winows 9x upgrade.
>
>Really? No Windows 9x upgrade ever lost things for me. It usually added
>things I didn't want and messed up my video settings, but never screwed the
>menu or the control panel.
I don't use Windows 9x myself but the few upgrades I've done have went
well at first but within weeks things were very unstable. Actually...
Right now I am using a Win2k upgrade from NT4 (I know, bad idea) and
it's working very well. NT upgrades are drastically different than 9x
upgrades I believe.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:09:43 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Oh boy...
I wiped the upgrade and installed 7.1 from scratch.
Oh look all the menu items are back!
Oh look DrakConf is now working (and is actually a new version)!
Oh dear, my USB ZIP 250 has _stopped_ working!
SMBFS doesn't seem to throw quite so many wobblies on shutdown!
The installation took about an hour, the upgrade about two hours. What a
waste of time the upgrade was. Even Windows wasn't that bad! It may break a
few drivers, but _never_ did it break the control panel or wipe half my
menu!
And this is supposed to be _better_ than Windows! HAH!
Pete
------------------------------
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