Linux-Advocacy Digest #605, Volume #28 Wed, 23 Aug 00 23:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (ZnU)
Re: Open source: an idea whose time has come (Mike Stump)
Re: GNOME & KDE, and the motivation for creation... (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Eric Bennett)
Re: OS advertising in the movies... (was Re: Microsoft MCSE) (Mike Marion)
Re: Open source: an idea whose time has come (Mike Stump)
Re: OS advertising in the movies... (was Re: Microsoft MCSE) (Mike Marion)
Re: Linux programmers dont live on this planet!
Do you feel lucky? alpha/beta test for me. (mlw)
Re: OS advertising in the movies... (was Re: Microsoft MCSE)
Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA (mlw)
[OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...) (david raoul
derbes)
Re: Microsoft Linux: what if? (Daniel Tryba)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (ZnU)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:24:24 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ZnU
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ZnU
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > And spending more than Gore on things like (broken) missile
> > > > defense.
> > >
> > > And spending less than Gore on broken things like social security and
> > > government health care.
> >
> > These social programs are broken mostly because the Republican congress
> > refuses to fund them properly.
>
> I consider Social Security to be fundamentally broken. Look at what it
> was originally supposed to do... provide for a few years of
> retirement... and look at what it's being asked to do today with an
> increasing aging population and significantly longer lifespans. Social
> Security should be largely terminated. I would support some sort of
> program to protect people on fixed incomes from runaway inflation during
> hard times, but not what we have now.
I'm certainly for reforming the system. But starving it for cash is
_not_ the way to do that.
> > > And of course even Gore is going to spend money on that broken
> > > missile defense program.
> >
> > Yes, and that's bad. But Gore wants a more scaled back version.
>
> Maybe you should throw your support behind Nader instead of Gore.
I would if I thought he had a chance.
> > > If that is in fact what the average American family would get. Given
> > > the conflicting stories that each side puts out about the other's
> > > programs, I have no idea what a realistic number is.
> >
> > As far as I know, the Republicans haven't put out any figures regarding
> > the effect of the tax cut on the average family. They just talk in
> > broad, general terms about "giving the money back to the people,"
> > without specifying which people.
>
> Bush claims, among other things, that under his plan an additional 6
> million families will pay no federal income taxes at all.
>
> http://www.bush2000.com/Issues.asp
Quoting from there:
"Under current tax law, low-income workers often pay the highest
marginal rates. �For example, a single waitress supporting two children
on an income of $22,000 faces a higher marginal tax rate than a lawyer
making $220,000."
Sounds good. But:
http://www.democrats.org/news/actualities/ac082300.html
"George W. Bush gives 60 percent of his tax cuts to the wealthiest 10
percent of Americans�those with the highest incomes who need it the
least. But working families that could use the extra dollars, whether
the waitress mom or the cop on your street, would benefit the least. A
waitress earning $22,000/year, for example, does not even pay income
tax, but gets a tax refund. According to CNN, she would only gain about
$114 under the Bush plan, while a $220,000 a year lawyer would get more
than $7,000 in tax breaks, thanks to Bush."
Somebody is lying. CNN seems to think it's Bush.
> > I'm quite aware. However, the fact that Bush isn't even _pretending_
> > he'll do it is a rather bad sign.
>
> He isn't being as specific about it, but I'd certainly say he's at least
> pretending he'll do it. Also, the information on his web site says he'd
> be putting a quarter of the surplus towards tax cuts, which is a far cry
> from how you've tried to characterize his plan.
What he's ignoring is that Social Security will dry up under his tax
plan. Of course, he wants that.
--
This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion may have
occurred during shipment.
ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Stump)
Subject: Re: Open source: an idea whose time has come
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:25:29 GMT
In article <aZwn5.8027$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Tim Cain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Meanwhile back at the ranch, I'm a bit confused. How is anybody
>supposed to earn a living from Linux/apps? One of the strong
>motivators that I see quote re: use of Linux/Linux apps are that they
>are free. Who is paying the piper?
If the piper does something others want, money will follow. If the
piper doesn't do anything of value to anyone, they'll starve. We have
an easy decade on free software experience in a commercial setting,
and while there are some bumps and grinds, the model so far is working
just fine. Some people might be tempted to say, yeah, but it could be
better only if... ignore them.
If you want to convince yourself it work, start a project to count the
number of lines of code/documentation that the free software folks
around the world put out and maintain, and graph is over the years.
The trend is obvious, I take it you haven't seen it.
I get the feeling I could explain it slowly, but you'd say, yeah, but
that is a special case, and that one too is a special case, and so is
that one... maybe, maybe the whole of free software is nothing but
special cases.
Take an example of a GNOMEoffice type software. If you paid $8M to
uSoft last year for your employees, and in the next four years, you
expect to pay another $16M, based upon historical data, might you
consider switching the whole office to GNOMEoffice, and be willing to
pay them $4M to `make it work' for you, to ensure you will not be
screwed, to ensure that it does everything _you_ need it to do?
That's 1/4 the price. Cheap. Also, with that kinda of money, you
should get hand holding, quick bug turn around and custom features.
Now, what if you solicited 40 of the fortune 500 and got contracts?
Let's see, $40M/year, not much, but probably enough to flesh out code
that will make the companies happy, and add a few other features only
you want, and still stuff a few dollars in your pocket (I hope). Now,
maybe your company only spends $100K/year on Office type software.
You might need 400 companies to join the effort to get the thing
flying. The point is, it is possible to get paid, if you do something
people need. One way to find out what they need, is to just ask them
what they want, put prices on things, and see what they `need'.
It isn't magic. In fact, the fact it is free software might not even
play a role in the decision process at the far end. I know that in
the Cygnus case, many customers didn't care.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: GNOME & KDE, and the motivation for creation...
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:26:16 GMT
In article <ik3n5.6521$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Stephen S. Edwards II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8nievo$282
> > I imagine that OSS developers experience the same sort
> > of elation when they are writing code, that I experience
> > when I come up with a cool demo reel idea.
> Well, there's a difference between spending a few hours,
> days or even weeks > working on some bit, and spending years
> fine tuning and pouring your heart and soul into something,
> only to have it rejected.
A very good point. The key thing that market-pundits used to
Windows are having difficulty understanding is that Linux eliminates
the need for exclusion.
Both use common libraries (Xlib, widgets, foundation classes, glibc
or clib, tk, and then they diverge, but the divergence is covered by
wrappers, and then they diverge again. KDE/Qt supports Athena, Olit,
Motif, and Microsoft base classes, unfortuately, there are many
widgets that require very expensive developer licenses, training,
consulting, and support agreements. Which is fine, this is how they
make their money.
On the flip sit, GTK tends to be more open, but makes it's revenue
through service and support agreements. Even the choice of
"per-incident" verses "flat rate" is largely a function of the need
of the customer, the willingness of the supplier to provied what the
customer needs most, and the prices at which the supplier compete in
terms of "bottom line" costs to the customer.
Even with BOTH KDE and GNOME running in the same Linux box, the
total memory consumption is only a few megabytes. The biggest
memory pigs are usually the X11 Server (because it needs to buffer
bitmaps), and Netscape (because there is a memory leak in the
application).
> > Actually, the only real difference between programmers
> > and 3D animators, in my experience, is that us 3D types
> > tend to be much more pissy and moody, due to our rather
> > eccentric artistic tendencies. :-)
>
> I wouldn't say developers are any less pissy or moody.
I'd tend to agree - but I spent many years around/and working with
"artists", and they are a very different breed. If you tell a
programmer he's doing it wrong, he knows there are 9 other ways
to do it, and tries a different approach. When you tell an artist
you don't like their work, it's a personal attack on the validity
of their existance.
Still, it's fun to compare the "culture" of Mainframe Gods, UNIX Gurus,
and Windows Wizards to the "cultures" of Actors, IATSE Stage Hands,
and Cash Crazy Angels. For the best picture of the latter, see
the movie "The Producers" by Mel Brooks.
--
Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 42 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:40:15 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ZnU
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > http://www.bush2000.com/Issues.asp
>
> Quoting from there:
>
> "Under current tax law, low-income workers often pay the highest
> marginal rates. �For example, a single waitress supporting two children
> on an income of $22,000 faces a higher marginal tax rate than a lawyer
> making $220,000."
>
> Sounds good. But:
>
> http://www.democrats.org/news/actualities/ac082300.html
>
> "George W. Bush gives 60 percent of his tax cuts to the wealthiest 10
> percent of Americans�those with the highest incomes who need it the
> least. But working families that could use the extra dollars, whether
> the waitress mom or the cop on your street, would benefit the least. A
> waitress earning $22,000/year, for example, does not even pay income
> tax, but gets a tax refund. According to CNN, she would only gain about
> $114 under the Bush plan, while a $220,000 a year lawyer would get more
> than $7,000 in tax breaks, thanks to Bush."
>
> Somebody is lying. CNN seems to think it's Bush.
You're saying the government should actually *give* money to people who
currently pay no taxes??? If they currently pay no taxes, it's kind of
hard for them to get tax relief, don't you think?
Of *course* the absolute dollar amounts saved by the wealthy are higher,
but that's only because they're paying a hell of a lot more in absolute
terms in the first place.
And how can you get a tax refund if you haven't overpaid? Sure, maybe
this hypothetical person gets a refund come April 15, but they still
paid tax via withholding throughout the year if they're getting a refund
at the end. To me, that means they've been paying taxes. What does it
mean to you?
> What he's ignoring is that Social Security will dry up under his tax
> plan. Of course, he wants that.
That's not what's on his issues web page:
"Governor Bush�s $460 billion tax cut over five years will contribute to
raising the standard of living for all Americans. �His budget uses only
about a quarter of the surplus for tax cuts, reserves all Social
Security funds for Social Security only, and still leaves extra money
for debt reduction, defense, education, and other priorities."
Not that I would blame him for wanting social security to dry up, of
course.
--
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ )
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS advertising in the movies... (was Re: Microsoft MCSE)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:43:51 GMT
Nathaniel Jay Lee wrote:
> Was it perhaps the Transformer called Jetfire? It was white with red
> stripes on it and had 'battle armor' that was red and black. I had that
> particular toy, plus about fifteen of the really little ones that they
> released as actual Robotech toys. I don't remember any Robotech toys
> that were of that size, but Jetfire was huge. And he's still my
> favorite toy:-). It took my months to save up the $35 I needed to buy
> him back then. Ah, for the good old days.
Might've been.
BTW, found a site that has all Robotech episodes in Real Vid format. I've
been running a wget on the site since Saturday and am just now getting the
last episode of the first season (site is hammered).
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. - http://miguelito.org
I have a problem with my 95 machine.
It says "Insert disk 3" but only two will fit. What do I do now?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Stump)
Subject: Re: Open source: an idea whose time has come
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:29:06 GMT
In article <75Bn5.98728$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>But Red Hat is still not making money.
We were talking about employees eating. Correct me if I am wrong, but
aren't the Red Hat employees eating?
You raise a different issue.
>I've seen posts from various people over the past couple years about
>open source companies that do make money. There must be some... can
>anyone point to any - especially public companies - that are open
>source and profitable?
Sure, Cygnus. During most of its life as an independent company, it
was profitable.
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS advertising in the movies... (was Re: Microsoft MCSE)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 01:55:05 GMT
"Stephen S. Edwards II" wrote:
> I spend nearly all of my weekends watching shows
> like NOVA, This Old House, The New Yankee Workshop,
> and of course, on Sunday, the BBC's Robot Wars,
> while I'm working on my 3D projects.
I find TLC and the History Channel have plenty of shows that suck me in...
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. - http://miguelito.org
I have a problem with my 95 machine.
It says "Insert disk 3" but only two will fit. What do I do now?
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux programmers dont live on this planet!
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:53:56 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Ryan Walberg (MCSD) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> > message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > By "server" == "driver", he was probably talking about his X server.
> > >
> >
> > That is what I was assuming that he meant, but as we know that is not a
> > valid description.
>
> Actually it is a very valid description. Although it behaves like a
> driver with regards to hardware and privileges, it is, none the less, a
> TCP/IP server which provides a service via TCP/IP. Simply because
> Windows does not have an adequate analogy, does not mean the words are
> incorrect.
Some X servers contains drivers but the servers are not drivers. In general
X server use the system drivers. But even for those that contian driver, it
provides much more than just a driver or drivers. An X server coordinates
the various terminal input devices as well as well as many other non-driver
functions. By the way an X server provides network access not only by
internet domain networking but also unix domain netowrking--possibly many
other networking domains.
There are X servers that run on Windows and and of course they are not
drivers, they use the various system drivers. There are also X servers for
Dos and other OS's as well
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development
Subject: Do you feel lucky? alpha/beta test for me.
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:06:03 -0400
I am working on an SQL full text search system.
The initial implementation is based on PostgreSQL (7.02) and runs on
Linux.
It you have a need to quickly search through your database using full
text matching, with some phrase analysis, drop me an e-mail.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS advertising in the movies... (was Re: Microsoft MCSE)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:00:50 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Stephen S. Edwards II" wrote:
>
> > I spend nearly all of my weekends watching shows
> > like NOVA, This Old House, The New Yankee Workshop,
> > and of course, on Sunday, the BBC's Robot Wars,
> > while I'm working on my 3D projects.
>
> I find TLC and the History Channel have plenty of shows that suck me in...
I am glad you didn't forget the last two words. <g>
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The dusty Linux shelves at CompUSA
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:13:50 -0400
Mike Marion wrote:
>
> mlw wrote:
>
> > some old 20/20 reports; CompUSA was one of the worst. (Bad marks for
> > replacing a hard drive AND!! motherboard for a bad IDE cable)
>
> I saw one of those reports... man it's sad. I've jumped into conversations
> before at my local CompUSA when I went in to buy a game and heard employees
> giving bad information. Then again, I've done that at a lot of stores. One
> of the worst is Fry's Electronics. If you know what you're doing, you can
> sometimes get some good stuff at a decent price, but watch out for items with
> the returned stickers, and _never_ ask employees technical questions, they're
> morons. The Fry's employment app (http://www.best.com/~braith/frys.htm) isn't
> funny when you realize that it's very close to reality.
>
It is an economy thing. If you were worth anything you would not be
working retail. That is Fry's, CompUSA, et. al. The issue is that
computers are complex. Duh!
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (david raoul derbes)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 02:16:00 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ZnU
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> > http://www.bush2000.com/Issues.asp
>>
>> Quoting from there:
>>
>> "Under current tax law, low-income workers often pay the highest
>> marginal rates. �For example, a single waitress supporting two children
>> on an income of $22,000 faces a higher marginal tax rate than a lawyer
>> making $220,000."
>>
>> Sounds good. But:
>>
>> http://www.democrats.org/news/actualities/ac082300.html
>>
>> "George W. Bush gives 60 percent of his tax cuts to the wealthiest 10
>> percent of Americans�those with the highest incomes who need it the
>> least. But working families that could use the extra dollars, whether
>> the waitress mom or the cop on your street, would benefit the least. A
>> waitress earning $22,000/year, for example, does not even pay income
>> tax, but gets a tax refund. According to CNN, she would only gain about
>> $114 under the Bush plan, while a $220,000 a year lawyer would get more
>> than $7,000 in tax breaks, thanks to Bush."
>>
>> Somebody is lying. CNN seems to think it's Bush.
>
>You're saying the government should actually *give* money to people who
>currently pay no taxes??? If they currently pay no taxes, it's kind of
>hard for them to get tax relief, don't you think?
>
>Of *course* the absolute dollar amounts saved by the wealthy are higher,
>but that's only because they're paying a hell of a lot more in absolute
>terms in the first place.
First off, are you really so certain that "the dollar amounts.. [paid]
by the wealthy are a hell of a lot more"?
A fair number of pretty wealthy Americans pay *no tax whatsoever* in this
country. There are all manner of tax shelters and dodges that wealthy
people can avail themselves of, which poor people have no chance of.
For one, as you know, mortgages. There is a substantial tax benefit to
having a large mortgage. Poor folk can't qualify for home ownership, so
fat lot of good that does them. (OK, you don't have to be wealthy,
thank God, to qualify for a mortgage; but you have to be to qualify
for a *large* mortgage.) But a poor person can't find a down payment,
and doesn't have the income to qualify for the loan. And that is only
the most obvious example. There are scandalous examples of laws passed
by our Congress that have, no kidding, exactly *one* beneficiary, who
turns out to be (a) wealthier than Yoko Ono and (b) a significant
contributor and probably constituent of the guy sponsoring the
legislation.
I have no problem at all paying people a tax refund even if they paid
no taxes, if they are working and trying to support a family. Would you
rather they started robbing banks? Robbing *you*? Are you opposed to
welfare in all its forms? Try doing without it... I don't mind paying
*these* taxes: it's the money we use to support e.g. the helium stockpile
(no kidding) that bothers me...
Apologies for an off-topic post.
David Derbes [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>And how can you get a tax refund if you haven't overpaid? Sure, maybe
>this hypothetical person gets a refund come April 15, but they still
>paid tax via withholding throughout the year if they're getting a refund
>at the end. To me, that means they've been paying taxes. What does it
>mean to you?
>
>> What he's ignoring is that Social Security will dry up under his tax
>> plan. Of course, he wants that.
>
>That's not what's on his issues web page:
>
>"Governor Bush�s $460 billion tax cut over five years will contribute to
>raising the standard of living for all Americans. �His budget uses only
>about a quarter of the surplus for tax cuts, reserves all Social
>Security funds for Social Security only, and still leaves extra money
>for debt reduction, defense, education, and other priorities."
>
>
>
>Not that I would blame him for wanting social security to dry up, of
>course.
>
>--
>Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ )
>Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology
------------------------------
From: Daniel Tryba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Linux: what if?
Date: 24 Aug 2000 00:45:40 GMT
Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
> Microsoft Linux 2002, Microsoft Linux Applications Kit, Microsoft Linux
> Explorer, MS Linux Express, etc. etc., indeed they could just take the
> guts [for free], paste some glitz on it, box it, sell and be the new
> "trendsetter"... Anyway, have some more names:
No they can't (in all cases). Take a look at the license of the progrma
they take for free. If it is GPL they can't add features to it and sell
it (for a reasonable fee (media expenses)) without releasing the
additional code. This may also apply to other licenses.
But if they release the code maybe something usefull can be salvaged from it 8-)
--
Daniel Tryba
------------------------------
From: ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 02:28:35 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ZnU
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > http://www.bush2000.com/Issues.asp
> >
> > Quoting from there:
> >
> > "Under current tax law, low-income workers often pay the highest
> > marginal rates. �For example, a single waitress supporting two children
> > on an income of $22,000 faces a higher marginal tax rate than a lawyer
> > making $220,000."
> >
> > Sounds good. But:
> >
> > http://www.democrats.org/news/actualities/ac082300.html
> >
> > "George W. Bush gives 60 percent of his tax cuts to the wealthiest 10
> > percent of Americans�those with the highest incomes who need it the
> > least. But working families that could use the extra dollars, whether
> > the waitress mom or the cop on your street, would benefit the least. A
> > waitress earning $22,000/year, for example, does not even pay income
> > tax, but gets a tax refund. According to CNN, she would only gain about
> > $114 under the Bush plan, while a $220,000 a year lawyer would get more
> > than $7,000 in tax breaks, thanks to Bush."
> >
> > Somebody is lying. CNN seems to think it's Bush.
>
> You're saying the government should actually *give* money to people who
> currently pay no taxes??? If they currently pay no taxes, it's kind of
> hard for them to get tax relief, don't you think?
Bush apparently pays that waitress $114 more.
> Of *course* the absolute dollar amounts saved by the wealthy are higher,
> but that's only because they're paying a hell of a lot more in absolute
> terms in the first place.
But they can afford a hell of a lot more in absolute terms. The rich are
doing quite well in this country. They don't need any tax breaks. I
won't support a tax break that gives 60% of the money to the top 5% of
the population. Especially not if the guy proposing it claims it
primarily benefits the working class.
> And how can you get a tax refund if you haven't overpaid? Sure, maybe
> this hypothetical person gets a refund come April 15, but they still
> paid tax via withholding throughout the year if they're getting a refund
> at the end. To me, that means they've been paying taxes. What does it
> mean to you?
It means something a bit loony is going on. But that's usually the case
with the government <g>
> > What he's ignoring is that Social Security will dry up under his tax
> > plan. Of course, he wants that.
>
> That's not what's on his issues web page:
>
> "Governor Bush�s $460 billion tax cut over five years will contribute to
> raising the standard of living for all Americans. �His budget uses only
> about a quarter of the surplus for tax cuts, reserves all Social
> Security funds for Social Security only, and still leaves extra money
> for debt reduction, defense, education, and other priorities."
The problem is that with the growing aging population, social security
funds won't be enough to keep Social Security going.
> Not that I would blame him for wanting social security to dry up, of
> course.
If social security dries up, people who've been paying into it for years
aren't going to get anything out of it. Even if you want to end social
security, it's obvious you can't do it like that.
--
This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion may have
occurred during shipment.
ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
