Linux-Advocacy Digest #605, Volume #31 Sat, 20 Jan 01 10:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: New Microsoft Ad :-) (Giuliano Colla)
Re: Windows curses fast computers (mlw)
Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice (Donn Miller)
Re: New Microsoft Ad :-) (Giuliano Colla)
Re: Windows curses fast computers (Donn Miller)
Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice (mlw)
Re: Windows curses fast computers (Donn Miller)
Re: Windows curses fast computers (Donn Miller)
Re: Windows curses fast computers (Donn Miller)
Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin (SoneoneElse)
Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin (SoneoneElse)
Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin (SoneoneElse)
Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin (SoneoneElse)
Re: New Microsoft Ad :-) (Edward Rosten)
Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin ("Ayende Rahien")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Microsoft Ad :-)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:14:59 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:949plq$ke0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Yea, that's something to remember. He can upgrade his graphics card
> > drivers without rebooting or stopping whatever else he's doing.
>
> Unless of course "what he's doing" is GUI related, such as working on a word
> processing document, spreadsheet, or database.
>
> For most end-users, all they work with is GUI apps, so what's the
> difference?
The difference is that on any non crappy OS, in case of GUI
crash, an application receives a termination message, and
shuts down neatly, being able to perform all the required
saving and cleaning. Only if the application is locked it
will be forcibly killed.
I now that this is unheard of in MS world, but that's one of
the reasons why MS is crap.
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows curses fast computers
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:21:37 -0500
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > >
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:94agkc$amc$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > Let me ask you a question. How long is WIndows supposed to wait?
> > > > Suppose
> > > > > IBM introduces a new drive with a 10GB buffer in it. It takes 10
> > > > minutes to
> > > > > flush the buffer to disk. How long is Windows supposed to wait
> before
> > > > > shutting down? The drive provides no way for the OS to know when
> the
> > > > buffer
> > > > > is fully flushed, so what is the OS supposed to do?
> > > >
> > > > Windows is supposed to wait long enough for the buffer to be safely
> > > > written to the disk. And yes, the drive can tell you if that has
> > > > happened.
> > >
> > > Fine, the please provide the ATA spec reference that shows how the drive
> > > does this. I can't find it in the spec. Since the spec isn't available
> > > publicly, you can just give me a reference and i'll look it up in mine.
> The
> > > spec is called NCITS 340-2000 and is available from ANSI for $18.
> >
> > If they fixed it once on NT4, why didn't they make sure that procedure
> > was in ME?
> >
> > Why? because MS does not know how to make decent software. Hece a 38 day
> > MTTF for NT 4.0.
>
> They didn't "fix" it. They just delayed the shutdown some extra time. This
> too will fail eventually when some other disk comes out with a larger cache.
I don't trust your explanation of the problem, simply because while it
sounds like the sort of thing Microsoft would do, being the worst OS
vendor on the planet, surely they can't be that stupid? Or can they?
Using a "wait loop" until a problem goes away is the stupidest
methodology any software engineer can use. No self respecting engineer
would put this into a production product. If Microsoft software
engineers do this sort of thing regularly, no wonder the uptimes are
crap and reliability sucks.
Apple has a tech note about this problem, with a reasonable procedure,
dated 1996:
http://www.devworld.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1040.html
So, Microsoft knows about the problem and there are documented
procedures for handling the problem, so why didn't they test for it in
QA? Because they can't produce decent product.
Again, I'd fire everyone involved with this crap. It is negligence, pure
and simple. (1) because they didn't code for this situation, (2) if they
did code for it, they did not do sufficient research, (3) QA did not
test for it.
Losing data, in every other OS, is a number one priority. To microsoft,
it seems to be an afterthought.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice
Date: 20 Jan 2001 07:14:32 -0600
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Everyone goes on about how Linux offers me the 'choice' of which desktop I
> can use, unlike Windows. However, choice here does not equate to consistant
> style.
> If I want all my file save/open dialogs to all look the same - like the KDE
> style, or MOTIF or Gtk, can I do that with the Linux desktop? No I can't -
> my choice is restricted here to whatever toolktip the application is
> created with.
True, with X you frequently have toolkit clashing. But, I look at it this
way: any toolkit is just a wrapper around Xlib. I don't really pay much
attention to the way it looks. In fact, I think it's a non-factor, because
you have so many apps that do the exact same thing across different toolkits.
You just pick your apps that are linked to your favorite toolkit.
For example, no doubt there's some maniacs here that think Athena is really
wild and crazy looking. Hey, it's got that funky Windows 1.0, retro look.
(You have seen Athena toolkit apps, like xman and xdvi, right?) So, in that
case, you're kinda screwed, because not many developers are using it.
However, with Open Motif, we are kind of liberated, because there's sure to
be a lot of Open Source Motif apps lying around. For example, I think
Netscape 4.76, or whatever it is, has its share of problems. But, it's good
enough for what I want to use it for. If I like the Netscape look, for
example, I might pick my apps to be Motif apps, like nedit for a text editor,
etc. etc. Even if you like Motif, Qt is sorta Motif-looking, which is
further enhanced by its bult-in Motif themability.
So there ya go. Just be more choosy about which apps you pick. For a person
who likes Motif apps, you're still in luck, because Qt is a lot more Motiffy
than Gtk. I can settle and just choose Qt and Motif apps. Simple.
Maybe you're one of those maniacs who digs the retro, Windows 1.0 look from
the disco era? Then Athena toolkit apps are for you! Just kidding.
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------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Microsoft Ad :-)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:20:48 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:949quf$ljt$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article <kvl96.136$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > The test covers desktop environments, not servers. The average
> > desktop *IS*
> > > shutdown at night.
> >
> > This is an artifact of the historical unreliability of MS operating
> > systems. Unix/Linux workstations are never shutdown at night.
>
> Tell that to your average "save the world" do gooder that insists on turning
> everything off to save the ecology. So called "green PC's" were invented to
> help shut these people up.
>
My Linux boxes, because of the above mentioned do gooder, go
in low power standby state after some programmable time of
no activity, and therefore don't need to be shut down.
The same is possible also on Windows boxes, but it's better
to reboot them frequently in order to have them working. For
that reason I shut down Windows workstation, and not Linux
workstations.
------------------------------
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows curses fast computers
Date: 20 Jan 2001 07:17:38 -0600
Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, I think this *IS* a fault of the drive. The drive should hold
> enough capacitance to finish writing out it's cache and then park, but
> aparently the drive doesn't do this.
And yet FreeBSD and Linux don't have this problem.
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------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:32:08 -0500
Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
> Everyone goes on about how Linux offers me the 'choice' of which desktop I
> can use, unlike Windows. However, choice here does not equate to consistant
> style.
>
> If I want all my file save/open dialogs to all look the same - like the KDE
> style, or MOTIF or Gtk, can I do that with the Linux desktop? No I can't -
> my choice is restricted here to whatever toolktip the application is
> created with.
There is no operating system that can force 100% consistent application
behavior, else every application would look like a notepad.
Not even Windows can claim any more control over this. I don't know what
applications you run, but the apps that I run on Windows almost never
use the standard file dialogs.
(Granted it is a Wintendo box, just games, scanner, digital camera, etc.
Real work is done on Linux.)
>
> If I restrict myself to KDE only applications then I lose certain system
> configuration tools as there isn't one written for KDE (that's certainly
> true of the Mandrake distribution). Linuxconf is one example, it can run in
> text mode or GUI - but uses the Gtk toolkit.
Hell, not even control panel applets in Windows look the same. What's
your point?
>
> It is true that on Windows, application do use different styles of file
> open/save dialogs - however, there is a system wide _standard_ that 99% of
> applications use.
I disagree with your numbers, not even 99% of Microsoft's own products
use the standard file I/O dialogs. It is in vogue to make your own.
Choice wins.
> Unfortunately, you can't change this standard - like have
> different shapes buttons etc. (and this is what I would call a "choice" -
> not the varying standards Linux offers).
That's not true either, there is much an application developer can do to
the standard file I/O dialogs, read the SDK.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows curses fast computers
Date: 20 Jan 2001 07:25:16 -0600
Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> They didn't "fix" it. They just delayed the shutdown some extra time. This
> too will fail eventually when some other disk comes out with a larger cache.
Why don't you ask people if their FreeBSD or Linux boxes have this same
problem? Surely, if Microsoft isn't competent enough to put some code in
there to ensure the data is properly written to disk before shutting down.
This problem is occuring because MS wants Windows to look good by shutting
down even faster than Win 95 did. This is called putting form before
function. The function of the OS is to ensure that all data had been flushed
to disk before shutting down. There are ways to do this. So, now you're
going to tell me it's the IDE spec at fault for Microsoft putting out crap
software?
So far, instead of it being Windows' fault, its:
!.) the HW
2.) the IDE spec
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From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows curses fast computers
Date: 20 Jan 2001 07:29:56 -0600
Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>flush the buffer to disk. How long is Windows supposed to wait before
>>shutting down? The drive provides no way for the OS to know when the buffer
>>is fully flushed, so what is the OS supposed to do?
>>
>>
> It's supposed to WAIT on the fucking interrupt you god damn idiot!
Wait, I know: it's the HW manufacturer's fault for not putting in a battery
backup so that the drive can finish flushing the data AFTER Windows pulls
the plug on the power. Dammit, this is the 21st century. Surely the IDE
drive should have an embedded processor and a battery backup so that it can
flush its own data after the power is off?
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------------------------------
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows curses fast computers
Date: 20 Jan 2001 07:36:01 -0600
Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Isn't it VERY convinient to find fault with hardware when YOUR
> the Windows USER who always blows your own dick off about how
> LINUX doesn't support hardware properly?
You mean Wintrolls actually have one of those?
> Well, Linux may not have as much support for hardware as Windows
> but what it does support, IT ACTUALLY SUPPORTS!!!!
Hey, umm, uh, well, FreeBSD and Linux both write data to disk faster than
Windows, so that's why they don't have this problem. I don't know -- FreeBSD
and Linux must be doing something lucky to flush that data to disk before
shutting down. It sure as hell can't be skill, right? I know! I have it
now. Everyone in the entire universe hates Windows, and everyone love
FreeBSD and Linux. So, it's the negative karma generated by all of those
Windows haters that's causing the problem to occur. It's the HW
manufacturers' fault for not speeding up the disk.
Gads, what an excuse maker!
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------------------------------
From: SomeoneElse (SoneoneElse)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:45:37 GMT
Reply-To: Truthteller
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:18:45 GMT, J J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> On general, you should stay away from RH, and especially from .0 releases.
>
>Red Hat is by far the most popular distro, for many reasons.
>
Actually I think Mandrake is starting to take over.
It tends to be solid, and to have an easier install.
The only "weakness" with Mandrake is that it tends to be a little
flipant. For example when Gnome starts, you see a Penguin flapping
his wings wearing a yellow aviator hat/helmet and goggles.
If you can tolerate that your OK.
>> Most notable example is gcc in RH 7, I remember that there was some problem
>> with 5.0, can't recall if there was something of the like in 6.0
>
>gcc in Red Hat 7 works just fine, thank you.
>
There is a patch for gcc on the RedHat site.
>
>> Be sure to have a LILO boot disk around, you'll need it to reinstall LILO
>> (or your boot manager of choice) on the MBR after you install Windows.
>
>Unlike Linux, windows simply wipes out the boot record for whatever
>OSes might be installed - a rather typical brain dead microsoft
>move - so that particular bit of advice is not inaccurate.
>
Better yet, buy System Commander. Make sure to get a version that
handles both Linux and Windows.
------------------------------
From: SomeoneElse (SoneoneElse)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:47:06 GMT
Reply-To: Truthteller
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 04:29:04 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Said Gary Hallock in alt.destroy.microsoft on Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:40:46
>>In article <FP4a6.61645$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "J J
>>Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>> gcc in Red Hat 7 works just fine, thank you.
>>>
>>> Yes, there was some silly uproar from the Red Hat bashers, and I'm still
>>> not sure I understand what it was all supposed to be about - gcc 2.96,
>>> while not yet 3.0, is a solid compiler, especially the c++ stuff - and
>>> was needed for some enterprise customers. I have been compiling the 2.4
>>> kernel with gcc-2.96 on several boxes, and it's been completely solid.
>>
>>The problem as I understand it is that the name mangling for C++ in 2.96
>>is different than previous versions and also different than what will be
>>in 3.0. So everything should work fine until you upgrade. Then a
>>recompile may be needed. But I have heard many people say that the whole
>>thing was blown way out of proportion. I'll probably keep 6.2 up on my
>>produciton systems until 7.1 comes out anyway I have tried 7.0 and had
>>no problems with it.
>
>Thanks, Gary. I still hope to avoid having to use gcc or any other
>compiler, but I appreciate the conversation.
You may not want to write any programs, but...
sometimes the cutting edge stuff only comes in source and you have to
build it yourself. Typically that is very simple:
./configure
make
make install.
But you will need gcc.
------------------------------
From: SomeoneElse (SoneoneElse)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:47:58 GMT
Reply-To: Truthteller
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:28:15 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Yes, I know that getting Windows to 'play nice' will still be tricky.
>I'm wondering if anyone knows where there is a good step-by-step, or at
>least a how-to, on this? I've been looking, but there's SO much about
>Linux available that its really tough to know where to look.
Buy system commander. It's the easiest way to go.
You can do the lilo thing, but that gets you into the guts.
------------------------------
From: SomeoneElse (SoneoneElse)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:12:23 GMT
Reply-To: Truthteller
On 19 Jan 2001 23:41:17 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Damien) wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:21:30 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>[*nice specs*]
>
>> It should be here next week. I didn't get the dual-boot option, but I
>> plan to install 95, and maybe NT, once its up and running. So here we
>
>You might run into some problems getting this machine to dual boot.
>The default Redhat Workstation install (which the OEM probably used)
>will likely have only two partitions (root and swap) which doesn't
>leave you anywhere to put Windows. Partition magic will get you over
>that hurdle, for a price.
>
I suggest that you reinstall whatever Linux you use.
the root partition (/) and swap are not enough.
Several you should have:
/boot 10M (very small ) as close to the front of the disk as possible.
The reason for this partition is that sometimes the linux
kernel needs to be within a certain cylinder on the hard
drive (on Windows too they just don't tell you ). You can
actually make it your first partition then your windows
partitions, then the rest of linux.
/root
/home These are where account specific stuff goes ( user root aka the
system administrtor goes in /root the rest in
/home/username ). If you have to reinstall then don't
delete your partitions or reformat them and you keep your
data.
/tmp Like to keep a large seperate partition for data.
/usr/local All things that are technically not part fo the distro go
there. Again I get to keep it if I reinstall or upgrade.
/web I create a symbolic link to /web from /home/httpd
that way I have plenty of room for apache stuff
( I create an index page for documentation and then put any
online documentation in there that way I can access it from
any machine and not have a hundred copies. )
/storage A place for junk. I also keep /storage/conf where I keep
special configuration files ( /etc/hosts.allow,
/etc/httpd.conf ) so I can just copy over when I
reinstall.
/var This directory stores important things like log files for system
errors.
It important to have as many seperate filesystems as you can, because
that insures that if one goes down it doesn't take the others with it.
Also there is a maximum number of inodes (files ) per filesystem so
splitting up gives you more. Also if a system ( say /home or /web )
gets to full, you can get a second hardrive, create a new filesystem,
copy over to the new filesystem and use that instead. Also when you
reinstall, if you isolated user data, that can be kept without wiping
it out.
Finally the default format is ext2. I suggest that you use reiserfs
or ext3 ( reierfs seems to be more popular ). Why?
These are "journaling" filesystems. Ext2 works well, but let us
say you are saving a file. In ext2 the file is overwritten. In a
journaling filesystem the file is kept, a new copy of the file is
written, then when you finish the inode is updated to the new file.
That gives better system integrity ( sort of like transactions with
databases ).
------------------------------
From: Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Microsoft Ad :-)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:16:43 +0000
> >Reread the post, but this time carefully. How could it takt 8 months to
> >get your keyborrd to work? Hell, you couldn't fix it if the keyboard
> >wouldn't work (I didn't consider USB ones). I thought if I made such
> >wild claims such as a *keyboard* taking 8 months to work, and coupled it
> >with an NT spontaneous BSOD, people would realise the first bit was a
> >joke.
>
> The only problem with this is there are people who will
> seriously claim to that either of those situations
> represents reality.
>
> One man's joke is another man's FUD mantra.
On second thoughts, I wouldn't put it past Chat, Flatfist or JS/PL to
spuot that kind of rubbish.
> >
> >For the record I have never had any problems with keyboards under any OS
> >and it took me a total of about 2 hours first time to get Linux running
> >and I've never looked back.
> >
> >You were probably up too late posting like me :-)
>
> ...no, just parts of a posting that looked like it came from
> Chad Myers...
It was kind of inentional, though there were some quite un Chad like
bits.
-Ed
--
Did you know that the reason that windows steam up in cold|Edward Rosten
weather is because of all the fish in the atmosphere? |u98ejr
- The Hackenthorpe Book of lies |@
|eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <Please@don't.spam>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:51:38 +0200
Reply-To: "Ayende Rahien" <Please@don't.spam>
"J J Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:FP4a6.61645$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Ayende Rahien <Please@don't.spam> wrote:
> > Be sure to have a LILO boot disk around, you'll need it to reinstall
LILO
> > (or your boot manager of choice) on the MBR after you install Windows.
>
> Unlike Linux, windows simply wipes out the boot record for whatever
> OSes might be installed - a rather typical brain dead microsoft
> move - so that particular bit of advice is not inaccurate.
This is *very* accurate.
If he will install windows, he will need a LILO boot disk, because RH
wouldn't boot because Windows will overwrite the MBR.
He will have to reinstall LILO in the MBR if he wish to use Linux.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <Please@don't.spam>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:59:59 +0200
Reply-To: "Ayende Rahien" <Please@don't.spam>
"Damien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:3a693a3d$0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:32:26 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Said Damien in alt.destroy.microsoft on 19 Jan 2001 23:41:17 GMT;
> > >On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:21:30 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >[*nice specs*]
> > >
> > >> It should be here next week. I didn't get the dual-boot option, but
I
> > >> plan to install 95, and maybe NT, once its up and running. So here
we
> > >
> > >You might run into some problems getting this machine to dual boot.
> > >The default Redhat Workstation install (which the OEM probably used)
> > >will likely have only two partitions (root and swap) which doesn't
> > >leave you anywhere to put Windows. Partition magic will get you over
> > >that hurdle, for a price.
> >
> > I'm fine with fdisk, actually. Is there a how-to?
>
> I'm sure you are. But fdisk will not help you. It cannot resize
> partitions, and since you'll only have two (a root, and a swap, both
> of which you need), you are not going to have anywhere to put windows.
>
> As for a how-to, I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Why would someone
> want to put Windows on a perfectly functioning computer?
There are dozens of them.
IIRC, there was an article in Linux Magazine about how to make NT's boot
loader load linux as one of the choices.
Don't recall the spesifics, but you can have a look.
> Something I didn't mention earlier, but someone else did I feel it's
> worth restating. Windows installation with overwrite all your
> partitions, destroying everything in it's path. You experiment is
> doomed.
No, it doesn't, you are thinking RH server.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <Please@don't.spam>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: "The Linux Desktop", by T. Max Devlin
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:00:46 +0200
Reply-To: "Ayende Rahien" <Please@don't.spam>
"Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Well, here we go.
> >
> > I've got the "Linux Desktop" on order, from a company listed on
> > linux.org. Its an 850MHz Athlon with 128 Meg of ram and a 40G ATA 100
> > drive. CD-writer, printer, Logitech wheel mouse, PCI modem and a cheap
> > Ethernet card; 19 inch monitor. RedHat 7.0, and I paid the extra bucks
> > for the Deluxe box.
> >
> > It should be here next week. I didn't get the dual-boot option, but I
> > plan to install 95, and maybe NT, once its up and running. So here we
> > have a real-world comparison, taking into account and reflecting on the
> > monopoly, pre-load, and ease of installation. The Win-whiners aren't
> > going to agree, of course, but I think seeing just how easy it is to
> > install 95 or NT on a box that has Linux preloaded is going to be very
> > instructive. I've said I'd never build a PC from scratch again, and
> > would prefer an OEM earned their profit by integrating the system for
> > me. But in this case, the exact same hardware is supported by the same
> > vendor as a dual-boot option, (can you believe it? an OEM selling
> > dual-boot), so I don't think I'm going out on a limb. Plus which, if
> > Windows for some reason is too much of a hassle to get up, I'll still
> > have a functional system, so that might help eliminate the 'frustration
> > and desperation factor' which so badly reflects on the monopoly in the
> > typical scenario.
>
> You're kidding, right?
>
> Windows was never designed to cooperate with non-Microsoft operating
> systems on the same machine; half the time it can't even cooperate
> with other Microsoft operating systems (try installing 95 after
> any of the NT versions -- your MBR will be overwritten).
>
> I'll tell you what will happen: Windows will overwrite the MBR and
> take over the machine. If you happen to install ME or 98, and aren't
> paying attention, they will even re-partition your drive and put
> themselves as the first primary partition.
They don't.
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