Linux-Advocacy Digest #426, Volume #29 Tue, 3 Oct 00 15:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Donovan
Rebbechi)
How are you using linux? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway? (.)
RE: Win2K beats Linux in OpenGL performance using Nvidia products ("Raul Iglesias")
RE: Linux Sucks ("Raul Iglesias")
Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway? (.)
Re: The real issue ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (T. Max Devlin)
Linux and Free Internet? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Photoshop for Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Unix rules in Redmond (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: The real issue ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway? ("MH")
Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway? ("MH")
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway? ("Nigel Feltham")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 3 Oct 2000 18:29:32 GMT
On Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:42:28 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>El mar, 03 oct 2000, Richard escribi�:
>>And it doesn't matter cause it all comes down to the fact that I'm
>>building an end-user platform, not a server, so I don't need to be
>>"fast" as commonly understood.
>
>You would be surprised just how cranky end users get.
A thought experiment --
force the average end user to run Win98 on a 386 for a day, and see if s/he
thinks it "doesn't matter".
One of the users favourite complaints is regarding escalating system
requirements. It seems that "Dick" is listening more to him self than
he is the "end users". Which is hardly surprising, because I've yet to
see him listen to anyone besides himself in this thread.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: How are you using linux?
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 18:19:29 GMT
All,
I just ordered linux from www.cheapbytes.com. I want to use it for web
development. I was wondering how/if people were using linux to develope
web applications for a living.
Thanks,
James
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway?
Date: 3 Oct 2000 18:34:09 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8rd66i$26rc$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> > http://support.intel.com/support/processors/sspec/p3p.htm - show me the
>> > PIII666 on that list?
>>
>> You have misunderstood what I typed, dresden. I'm not naming the chip,
>> im describing it. It runs at 666mhz. It does not run at 667 mhz, and in
>> fact it CANNOT run at 667mhz. The fact that it is called a 667mhz chip by
>> intel is obviously a move to disassociate it from spooky evil columbine
>> type hacker idiots.
> Actually it runs at 666.6666666666 <etc> Mhz. Obviously intel has better
> math than whoever wrote your monitoring program.
Actually, CPU mhz cannot be measured to your significant figures. You are
quite incorrect.
>> > yes, I know what your applications tell you - 666 is closer to it's real
>> > speed but that's not what you've got. Does your mustang have a 5.0 liter
>> > engine or 4.87?
>>
>> I dont have a mustang. But if I did, it would be 4.88. (4.877)
> So why is a CPU that runs at 666.666666666 <etc> not 667 ?
It doesnt run with that many significant figures, brainiac. Tell me, how
do you measure 1/100th of an oscillation?
=====.
--
"It's natural to expect there might be people doing stupid things
with computers"
---Michael Vatis, director of the FBI's national infrastructure
protection center commenting on Y2K concerns about hacker attacks
------------------------------
From: "Raul Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Win2K beats Linux in OpenGL performance using Nvidia products
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 18:38:28 GMT
> Quite an accomplishment given that Linux is supposed to be 'so much
faster'
> than 2000 on the same hardware.
Yeah, if we had a 32MB RAM machine we could not test Windows 2000 against
Linux, just 'cause Windows 2000 wouldn't rub at all :-); so rewrite it
"Linux is much
faster than 2000 on the hardware that can run 2000"
------------------------------
From: "Raul Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Linux Sucks
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 18:38:35 GMT
> I tried Linux and I think it stinks. While there seem to be hundreds,
> if not thousands of applications included with the basic cd, most of
> them are useless junk that seem to require an interpreter of sorts to
> figure out.
> My advice is to let Linux be and allow it to die the slow death it
> seems to be dying as we speak. What junk this linux is. Do people
> actually like this sort of rot?
Let all us be too please.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway?
Date: 3 Oct 2000 18:42:12 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8rbsj5$29bm$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> > why? are the linux IDE drivers that bad?
>>
>> No, but DMA is often optional. You can turn it on, you can turn it off.
> Why wouldn't you want to use DMA?
If you had read all of the posts in this thread dresden, you would understand
that both chad and I have covered that point in some detail.
>>
>> You can also set its parameters in great detail. Its really very handy.
> DMS parameters ... ALL of them, SO many of them.
>>
Depending on the hardware, up to 22 of them. But you probably didnt know
that, since you know next to nothing about computers.
>> But not quite as handy as being able to play unreal tournament without
>> rebooting.
> who would reboot to play unreal tournament? why?
I get far better performance out of my hercules TNT2 ultra card from
windowsME than any other operating system with the important exception
of BeOS. Since I havent seen UT for BeOS yet, I use windowsME. Since
I dont like rebooting and only do it when absolutely nessesary, ive decided
to use this toy operating system until someone makes some really fun games
for BeOS.
=====.
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The real issue
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:40:36 +0100
>THIS is why people hate Microsoft! Now that they have taken over the
>browser-market [illegally - remember?], they can built all sorts of
>things into ASP, ISS, etc, that gives netscape the blow.
>
Quite true - try accessing www.msn.co.uk with any browser except IE (or
netscape) and it just displays
an asp runtime error message ( strangely, the us equivalent at www.msn.com
seems to work with all
browsers so it is the UK devision of microsoft not acknowledging the
existance of other broswers).
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:50:37 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Richard in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
>> Said Richard in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >You're a bleeding idiot. I can tell you never took a philosophy course
>> >because with that kind of reasoning, they'd have failed you on principle.
>> >
>> >(And all actions of a company are NOT actions of some employee.)
>>
>> Of course they are, you moron.
>
>Automated stock trading system, you nitwit.
Automated anything systems are merely the algorithmic repetition of a
human's decision making (the programmer, who is in some form at some
time paid by the corporation to write the system.
>Assembly line full of robots doing spot welding.
>Email support. Web sites On and on and on..
>
>Don't talk out of your ass, Max.
I think the appropriate advice would be 'don't talk to an ass, Max.'
Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Linux and Free Internet?
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 18:35:48 GMT
I haven't been able to spare $20 a month in several years for regular
Internet service, so I've had to use several "Free ISP" internet service
providers. Unfortunately, all of the "free internet" (i.e., ad-bar)
services only have software for the Windoze 9Whatever OSes. So I've
been in the irritating position of requiring a multi-boot computer for
years, and booting into Windoze to get on the Internet. Freewwweb.com
used to exist to provide non-ad-bar Internet for Linux users, but they
recently merged with Juno and now Juno is the only company.
If you want to get Linux on the desktops and laptops of the world, you
need to get *any* of the Free Internet companies to create a version for
Linux. Linux has software to replace every single Micro$oft
application. If you could advertise that Linux essentially "comes with"
free internet service, Linux usage would increase. A clever licensing
agreement could even put the "free isp" software on the distribution CD
itself.
I don't know how successful such efforts would be, since Juno has had a
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" e-mail address for three years and STILL hasn't
created a Mac version (Macs are roughly 12% of the desktop market, as
compared with Linux's 4%-6%), but the Linux platform is essentially
based on the concept of trying very hard not to spend money, so there
might be more interest from the Linux community than from a Mac
community where every upgrade means buying a whole new computer.
I've written letters to a couple of the free ISPs, and gotten a reply
from a very nice techie at FreeInternet (where "Linux FreeInternet" is
"on the table", hopefully a table located somewhere near the
decisionmakers), but the general consensus is that there hasn't been
much interest.
One thing that occurred to me while writing this is that a Linux
organization could create a new free ISP solely for Linux users, to keep
the connection software GPL, and the advertising income entirely for
further Linux development. It would be nice to see the message "LINUX
required" on a free ISP site.
And for further encouragement, $20 a month savings translates into $240
a year for new hardware for your Linux box. :)
Like to travel and use the Internet as you travel? Most free ISPs have
phone numbers in cities all over the U.S., and some offer international
support. You could be dialing in from a Linux laptop for free, instead
of being forced into Windoze AOL or calling your local ISP long-distance
(at $2.80 a minute from those cheating hotel phones).
Local schools or high schools need an Internet lab on a budget? A room
with 10 Pentium(tm)-class computers (90MHz to 133MHz), a 33.6k modem on
each computer, and free Linux plus free Linux ISP, equals a computer lab
for less than $4000. Try to do the same thing using legal editions of
Windoze 95 and the price jumps another $200 per computer, not to mention
the system crashes and system slowdowns increasing.
Free Internet Service for Linux would really speed up the entry of Linux
into the desktop and laptop market.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Photoshop for Linux
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 18:43:56 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Bartek Kostrzewa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why doesn't Adobe port Photoshop to Linux?
>
> I mean, they already have a UN*X version, it
> shouldn't be that big a problem to get it over
> to Linux, or am I wrong?
>
> GIMP just doesn't do the trick for me.. it's
> powerful, but not enough. If they'd implement
> layer effects and advanced layer handling it would
> be great, but like this...
Doesn't the GIMP already do layers? If not, what exactly
have I been doing when I did layers in the GIMP? (granted,
I get and install new versions of the GIMP, so you may be
using something older than mine.)
In any case, Adobe is probably looking at the GIMP and
thinking "don't want that competition!" What the GIMP
has over Adobe is that when something needs to be fixed,
it gets fixed, and the new version doesn't have to wait
for a commercial patch or a new version number. When
something needs to be added, people start working on
adding it right away, and the source code starts flying
out on the Internet, ready to start competing with a
commercial company who has to wait and make sure
everything works before releasing it.
Adobe is looking at the Internet software development
model, and realizing, quite wisely, that it has a model
which only works with Windoze and Mac users: they're
already used to waiting MONTHS for a bugfix on their
*OPERATING SYSTEM*, so whats the same amount of time
for a fix to something wrong with Adobe's Photoshop?
The Linux software development model makes waiting
months for a patch, an outdated and antiquated method
for fixing bugs and adding features. Adobe is merely
acting sensibly.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix rules in Redmond
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 18:53:26 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Mike Byrns
<@technologist,.com>
wrote
on Tue, 03 Oct 2000 04:55:13 GMT
<REdC5.98294$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Drestin Black wrote:
>
>> what? WHAT? hahahahhahhhahahahahhhahahahaahhahhahhaahhhahahaahhaha
>> <breath>
>> hahahahhhahhahahahahahahaaahahahahahaaahahahhahahhaha
>>
>> "Gary Hallock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > However you want to interpret the Mindcraft tests, it is old news.
>> > Linux beats W2K hands down now.
>
>Although I think "Drestin Black" is an idiot for his post (sorry dude
>that was sophmoric) I still need you to post your proof. This is a
>challenge for you to show what you posted is true. Of course you can
>take it back now if you'd like.
I agree, and I also must add that the original claim is far too vague
to be provable anyway. How, precisely, does Linux Beat W2K?
(Or vice versa?)
There are a large number of metrics. Some of the ones I can
think of are reproduced below.
- kernel memory footprint
- system memory footprint, with equal or comparable functionality running
- integer computation throughput
- floating-point computation throughput
- raw disk I/O throughput (e.g., writing to or reading from a partition)
- sequential file I/O throughput
- random file I/O throughput
- swap space I/O throughput
- empty or non-empty file creation rate
- empty or non-empty file deletion rate
- empty directory creation rate
- empty directory deletion rate
- local socket I/O throughput
- network socket I/O throughput
- static Web server I/O throughput
- dynamic Web server I/O throughput
- video frame rate for e.g. Quake, HalfLife, or Unreal Tournament
- database record retrieval rate (if running a database)
- database record insertion rate
- database record update rate
Some of these have been formalized: e.g. dhrystones, Specmarks,
megaflops.
Or one can do more subjective metrics; it should be obvious
why these might be considered "subjective", as without precise
definition of, say, a "crash" (program generating unexpected
output? core dump? Kernel panic/Blue Screen O' Death?), or
what an application is, things could get interesting.
- mean time between failures
- average usability
- number of applications available
- number of programming tools, libraries, or widgets available
- number of lines of code written/hour/programmer
- number of lines of code debugged or released/hour/programmer
One can also divide by unit price (in which case Linux wins
by virtue of the fact that it's free, although there are some
nasty issues here since it could be free, but very slow -- fortunately,
it tends to be competitive in the speed arena on many measurements,
except for perhaps multi-card high-bandwidth tests such as
Mindcraft's :-) ).
I suspect that Linux and Win2k are competitive in a number of categories.
I know which one I prefer, mind you -- but I'm only one user
in about 200 million, if not more.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The real issue
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:52:18 +0100
>1) You can have free exchange of information today such as via the
>Internet. Unless you live in China -- but even that is changing.
>
Not if someone has decided to provide that information in a proprietry
format
which cannot be made available to anyone using a different operating system
or office suite due to non-disclosure agreements.
>That is NEVER going to EVER change because the real world works for MONEY
>(as in mula, cash, the green, etc.). Almost nobody cares that file-formats
>are proprietary... why is it such a bad thing?
What happens if you do all your work in a proprietry format and the original
company
who produced the package used to create this format disappears and you need
a
way to read those files after changing operating systems or losing original
install disks.
>Microsoft is a major proponent of XML by the way, and OPEN standard. It is
>using XML now in Windows 2000 to do many things. As you know Windows 2000
>supports many 'standards' as well including OpenGL, TCPIP, FTP, HTTP, HTML,
>XML, yadda yadda yadda and more blah blah blah.
>
They may start by using common open standards but then revise those
standards in ways
which make them incompatible with the original standard and then wrap up the
changes in
non-disclosure agreements so other users of the open standard cannot
implement these
differences.
>You will never get any company that improves it's products to stick to open
>standards... otherwise, what separates them from their competitors?
>
You may not get companies to stick to open standards but you can try to make
standards
which start out as open remain open by forcing anyone who revises these
standards make
any revisions available to everyone who uses the standard.
>The good news is - is that you have a choice. You can *choose* to use
Linux
>as much as you want... nobody can stop you, not even MS.
>
>And I can *CHOOSE* to use Windows 2000 - because that is what I want to
use.
>Big bad 'ol Billy doesn't force it down anybody's throat. I simply choose
>to use it because I want to.
So billy boy has never used per processor oem agreements to force computer
system
buyers to have windows pre-installed then?
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:59:57 -0400
>happily give details to anyone who wants them with the exception
> of dresden and any of his previously identified flunkies.
Another commode swimmer.
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:03:16 -0400
> I get far better performance out of my hercules TNT2 ultra card from
> windowsME than any other operating system with the important exception
> of BeOS. Since I havent seen UT for BeOS yet, I use windowsME. Since
> I dont like rebooting and only do it when absolutely nessesary, ive
decided
> to use this toy operating system until someone makes some really fun games
> for BeOS.
Good. Keep waiting. While you're at it, could you return to swimming in the
commode sans the incessant noise emanating from your hole?
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 15:05:32 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said JS/PL in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Said JS/PL in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >
>> >"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> >
>> >> >And I'm sure you've got a special agreement other than the one every
>> >other
>> >> >dialup customer of theirs signed.
>> >>
>> >> No, just a contract that says if I post for a month of Internet access,
>> >> they'll provide it.
>> >
>> >That sounds like a great law! You mean to say if you pay an ISP a month
>in
>> >advance they can't cancel you for breaking the rules?
>>
>> I think you've tried to sneak an assumption in where I never made it.
>
>I don't think so. Your the one that claimed your ISP is contractually bound
>to provide you service, merely because you have a positive balance on your
>account.
And now the assumption has magically disappeared again. Can you spot
it?
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:57:30 +0100
>I dont really see why youd WANT to turn it off in a workstation
environment,
>but the option is there...
>
I guess that some early versions of some IDE chipsets may be unreliable if
DMA is enabled so linux just installs with the safest options set (this is
not
exclusive to linux - the win9x ide driver for my via mvp3 chipset also
defaults
to having dma disabled and so do other drivers which is why some win9x dvd
playback software includes checking dma in optimisation section of their
readme
files).
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
