Linux-Advocacy Digest #654, Volume #29 Sat, 14 Oct 00 13:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: A Public Service Announcement ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Linux Chat Server (Zer0Oxygen)
Re: Why does Linux have to be such a pain to install? - A speech (sfcybear)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux (Matthias Warkus)
Re: The Power of the Future! (Phil 'Guido' Cava)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Public Service Announcement
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:41:34 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Taken from the firewall group:
>
> ******************************************************************************
>
> Linux Advisory Watch is a comprehensive newsletter that outlines the
> security vulnerabilities that have been announced throughout the week.
> It includes pointers to updated packages and descriptions of each
> vulnerability.
>
> This week, advisories were released for mod_rewrite, mod_php3,
> tmpwatch,
> traceroute, boa, esound, usermode, gnorpm, openssh, apache, and
> cfengine.
> The vendors include Caldera, Conectiva, Debian, FreeBSD, Immunix,
> LinuxPPC, Mandrake, SuSE, and Trustix. It is critical that you update
> all
> vulnerable packages to reduce the risk of being compromised.
>
> http://www.linuxsecurity.com/vuln-newsletter.html
>
> **********************************************************************************
> Looks like it's been a busy week.
>
> claire
At least they TELL us. MS tend to try to gloss over security holes (of
which there are many).
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:43:57 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Weevil in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>Hmm...I wonder how many highly aggressive Microsoft bashers were once
>pro-Microsoft?
It is with no small amount of chagrin that I point out that I was once
pro-Windows, if not pro-Microsoft. I was a strong champion for
implementing Windows on PCs in the late eighties. This was before I was
aware, of course, of the reality of the anti-competitive strategies that
Microsoft was engaging in. I was primarily advocating implementation of
multi-tasking GUIs to replace the simplistic DOS environment, and
explicitly expected competition in such GUI environments. When it
became clear that this wasn't going to occur, it was investigating why
this was the case which made me aware of per-processor licensing, the
empty charade of the DR-DOS warning, and all of the other illegal tricks
that MS played to maintain their criminal monopoly.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:50:41 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said James A. Robertson in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>>
>> Nobody ever said everything they create is junk because they don't know
>> squat about designing operating systems. I said its junk because its
>> monopoly crapware, which only has to be good enough to keep people
>> locked in until the next version, and is therefore more profitable to
>> Microsoft the less functional it gets. But I don't know about D'Arcy.
>
>The 'monopoly' here is the OS, right? However, there are other OS
>choices:
The monopoly is the OS *market*.
>MacOS, Linux, BEos, OS/2, Solaris, Solaris on Intel, HPUx, AIX, Irix,
>etc.
Of the list, only four are PC OSes. They are:
Linux - http://www.opensource.org/halloween/
BEos - a niche product
Solaris on Intel - a niche product
OS/2 - http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
So two out of four were directly attacked by anti-competitive
strategies. All of them are marginalized. All of them are locked out,
generally (though Linux is making some headway, regardless) of the
pre-load market. It is not the existence of alternatives, but the
availability of the alternatives without disadvantage incurred to the
consumer, which defines whether there is a monopoly.
Monopoly does not mean you are the only one with a product; it means you
are the one with the ability to control prices or exclude competition
through anti-competitive means.
>There are choices, and have been for years. Consumers have made a
><choice> to favor Windows.
Consumers have had Windows pre-loaded on 999 out of every 1000 PCs
purchased over the last five years, and probably no more than 2% of them
have any interest in the after-market OS products.
>One can argue that it was a poor choice (I
>would), but it was a freely made choice - mostly because other vendors
>cheerfully allowed MS to take the high volume/low price end of the
>market as they chose to take the high margin/low volume end.
Now if only you can explain why per-processor licensing is a matter of
consumers freely making a choice, you might have a point. By 'other
vendors', it seems you're probably referring to other hardware
platforms, which have little or nothing to do with PC OSes.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:55:54 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Erik Funkenbusch in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> >It's like they can't decide whether MS is incompetant or omnipotent.
>>
>> Gee, maybe they just change them after someone already starts using
>> them. You ever think of that, bright boy? Other WinTrolls have already
>> loudly proclaimed that any developer has to deal with some level of
>> undefined behavior. Well, any developer that MS doesn't like can easily
>> find that this undefined behavior has mysteriously changed after the new
>> OS, IE, or Office 'upgrade' or service pack. And you would demand its
>> never happened, I'm sure, but that's what makes you an incompetent boob.
>
>Max, listen to me closely. I won't say this again.
I wish I could believe that.
>Even Word 2.0 and Excel
>4 still run perfectly fine in Windows ME and Windows 2000. If these
>programs depended on those hidden API's, they too would break when those
>API's changed.
Only if you presume a simplistic mechanism, which you are happy to do,
in your ignorance of the code, because it defends your chosen position,
and which I refuse to do, being ignorant of the code, because it is
counter to evidence.
>Don't start talking about patches and service packs, because no such thing
>exists for those old binaries. They simply work.
The patches and service packs wouldn't have to effect the old binaries,
but the new code.
I understand your point, Erik. You are saying that MS couldn't have
used undocumented APIs in older apps, and then changed those
undocumented APIs while still having the older apps work. But I never
indicated that it was changing the undocumented APIs which these apps
used which was done to break other products. That is a straw man of
your own devising. I'm merely aware of the *fact* that Microsoft a)
uses undocumented APIs to benefit their own apps, b) has the ability to
change undocumented behavior which any other developer might seek to
benefit from, and c) engages in a tactic known as 'churn', which enables
them to maintain a monopoly product without having the API vulnerable to
competitive development.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:57:25 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said D'Arcy Smith in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Said D'Arcy Smith in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >"Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>
>> >Well that would imply that MS had thought out using undocumented apis
>> >with the mind towards changing them to screw people later... I don't
>> >know what I think of that idea...
>
>> I think it is an accurate interpretation of the facts:
>
>> "I doubt they [Digital Research] will be able to clone Windows. It is
>> very difficult to do technically, we have made it a moving target and we
>> have some visual copyright and patent protection. I believe people
>> underestimate the impact DR-DOS has had on us in terms of pricing."
>> (Bill Gates, May 18, 1989)
>
>Moving target may mean adding APIs not necessarily changing them.
>I am not a windows programmer (and neither are you) so I would
>tend to hold off on making assumptions about what that statement means.
You have shown in the past that you'd prefer to 'hold off on making'
*decisions*, by calling them assumptions, which are otherwise
reasonable.
Moving target means the plan is to maintain the ability to change it to
screw people later, if they should manage to get close to the target to
begin with.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
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------------------------------
From: Zer0Oxygen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Linux Chat Server
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:47:43 GMT
Does anyone know of a good linux chat server that can be accessed
using telnet? I have tried out a few like jdkchat, nexus, nuts, and
geektalkd... But they are all very plain. I'm looking for one that will
notify users either visually or verbally when there is activity.
Thanks for any help
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Linux have to be such a pain to install? - A speech
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:54:48 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I agree and have said in the past, Linux install is very easy with a
> modern distro (except Corel, unless your hardware is fully supported
> by it) and a decent set of hardware.
>
> It's far superior to Windows in that regard.
>
> The fun begins after the install, and you have made those points
> rather well.
I agree the fun does begin after the install. I enjoy working with my
Linux. It is far more flexable and powerfull that the windows GUI only,
Hunt and Peck aproach.
Linux puts the fun back in computing!
>
> claire
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:14:08 -0400, "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8s8kh3$rc7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> I've been reading all these messages around the internet about how
> >> easily people have been setting up their Linux distributions. I'm
here
> >> to tell you that it is in fact, not easy at all to setup a Linux
> >> distribution onto an older machine.....
> >
> >I have just the opposite experience. I've setup Linux on a number of
> >occasions and have had minimal problems with the install. My gripes
come
> >after the install. I really think it boils down to one glaring
problem.
> >Linux has no decent web browser. When I'm logged onto Linux, I'm
running a
> >KDE desktop with two or three xterms open compiling with gcc and
trying my
> >hand with bash scripting.
> >I make use of the KDE editors for various writings, and use Kmail for
email.
> >But when I venture out onto the internet I'm stuck with a third rate
browser
> >which I can't stand.
> >
> >Linux will never win the hearts of desktop computer users until this
issue
> >is resolved. I hope Mozilla can accomplish this task, but quite
frankly I'm
> >a little tired of waiting for it. If I had the juice on my PC -- and
the $$
> >I would consider VMware to run windows on another desktop for just
that
> >purpose. But then think about it. I can run my old copy of Borland
Turbo C++
> >for DOS, surf the net with I.E., play around with VB and Delphi, play
any
> >game on the market, run office for my writing and financial needs, so
on and
> >so on. Why drop the $$ on a program like VMware just to have this on
another
> >desktop in Linux? It makes no sense to me at all.
> >
> >Give me a decent browser and Kylix. Then throw on Corel's suite for
Linux
> >and were talking. Until the browser is on par with MS's offering
Linux will
> >always be relegated to the back burner on most people's desktop. Just
MHO.
> >
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:01:06 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said James A. Robertson in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>>
>> Said James A. Robertson in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> >The win32 API seems to have little in common with the X Windows system,
>> >thus making any emulation that much more difficult.
>>
>> Oh, I'm sure. Every little bit helps, when you're trying to prevent
>> competition.
>>
>
>So in your view, they should have modeled Win32 on either X or Mac in
>order to make your life simpler. Hmm...
I'm entirely unaware of what logic would lead you to that presumption,
which happens to be incorrect.
OTOH, I'm not sure what 'make your life simpler' is supposed to mean.
If I'm not mistaken, Microsoft did use the paradigms established by both
X and the Mac in making their life simpler, as it provided the easiest
method of developing their technology with the goal, not of producing a
superior product, but of preventing competition.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:01:47 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> >The win32 API seems to have little in common with the X Windows system,
>> >thus making any emulation that much more difficult.
>>
>> Oh, I'm sure. Every little bit helps, when you're trying to prevent
>> competition.
>
>I thought people were supposed to compete on doing the best job, not by
>copying each other and trying to compete on API implementations.
Well, they are, but Microsoft doesn't.
>X Windows, frankly, sucks as it is. Making Win32 identical to X would be a
>stupid move.
So from having something in common, we move immediately to making it
identical? That does sound like a stupid move.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:02:39 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Ermine Todd in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>Your argument is specious at the very least because at one point the source
>for notepad and the edit control were freely available. [...]
And yet, despite the fact that the notepad hasn't changed, WINE
developers cannot entirely replicate the edit control. Sounds like
you're missing something.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Subject: Re: A classic example of unfriendly Linux
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:22:13 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:34:38 GMT...
...and [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[firewalling stuff]
> This is a piece of cake with either Norton Firewall, ZoneAlarm (free)
> or BlackIce or SonicWall which I believe is also free for personal
> use.
>
> Install it and it will do exactly what this poor soul is trying to do
> as well as a hell of a lot more.
Big deal. People who want to set a firewall up under Linux without
technical knowledge shouldn't try playing with config files anyway and
use something like gnome-lokkit. There's a couple of packages to ease
firewalling under Linux. No need to play with settings if you don't
unerstand them.
mawa
--
Bl�mchenpfl�cker!
Bonsaig�rtner!
Beinrasierer!
Beischlafbettler!
------------------------------
From: Phil 'Guido' Cava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Power of the Future!
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:09:38 GMT
Perhaps Drestin is really John-Todd-Whoever in disguise; and, now we get to
here the inside scoop on MS instead of HP?
Guido
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> On 10/13/00, 6:43:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck) wrote regarding
> Re: The Power of the Future!:
>
> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 06:21:35 GMT, Mike Byrns
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > >> MS would not let a kook like you near any corporate site and give
> > >> details on the usenet.
>
> > >Drestin has been much better behaved in recent posts. Kook is an ad
> > >hominem attack on his credibility.
>
> > Yes, it was ad hominem, but "Drestin" has a long history of posting in
> > comp.os.linux.advocacy. He much predates your posting here, so you
> > have seen only the most recent "Drestin" posts. A number of long
> > timers have a history with "Drestin".
>
> "Ad hominem: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to
> logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that
> question their opponents' motives."
>
> I suppose the question is, Is Drestin a factual authority on Hotmail?
>
> MS, like any large company, is NOT going to allow someone to post
> corporate info on a sensitive migration in a public newsgroup so they
> can banter about Windows and Windows 2000. If that's an Ad hominem
> attack then it is - to me it's really about credibility of facts and
> the illogical premise that this guy is going to have detailed
> information about MS's hotmail architecture and performance AND be
> allowed to post it on USENET in the format and context that he uses.
------------------------------
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