Linux-Advocacy Digest #665, Volume #30 Tue, 5 Dec 00 13:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Of course, there is a down side... ("Kelsey Bjarnason")
Re: Microsoft Light Bulb Part 2 ("MH")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Bill Vermillion)
Re: Take a conglomeration of copper and silicon and make it useful ("Tom Wilson")
Re: What does KDE do after all (SwifT -)
Re: Linux is awful ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Dumbing down linux? (Bruce Scott TOK)
Re: [OT] Gore & Bush ("JS/PL")
Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux (Aaron Ginn)
Re: What does KDE do after all (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Microsoft Light Bulb Part 2 ("Tom Wilson")
Re: What does KDE do after all (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? ("JS/PL")
Re: Linux is awful (Scott Swarthout)
Re: Linux is awful (Scott Swarthout)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Kelsey Bjarnason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:55:13 GMT
[snips]
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:90hs0t$14d3r$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Goldhammer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > It's beyond my understanding how MS, a billion+ dollar
> > > > > company, can ship an OS with such a shit default text
> > > > > editor. With all their massive resources, they still
> > > > > haven't ever provided the user with basic text editor
> > > > > fuctionality.
> what basic functionality is notepad missing?
Apparently, the ability to edit text - that would, after all, be "basic text
editor functionality". From this we can conclude that notepad is really a
text _viewer_, and does not incorporate editing functions. Yeah, that's the
ticket. :)
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Light Bulb Part 2
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:16:22 -0500
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > All of this discussion about Microsoft renting apps with .NET
> > got me to thinking...what are we facing if, in fact, Microsoft
> > does start renting apts???
Dunno, but I DO know what I'd be facing _without_ kill filters on my news
reader.
Hmmm...if I were to use Agent's global filtering with the criteria
"Microsoft" -- got ME to thinking that I'd more than likely reduce cola DL's
to my PC by more than 80%.
I'm thinking again. Advocating one thing by constantly blathering about
another. Hmm...
Food for thought, albeit dyspeptic.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:59:05 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 14:44:07 -0500, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> >Put a computer in front of a person from a remote village which
>>> >has no electrical service, and let's see how "intuitive" the
>>> >power switch is.
>>> OK, now you are getting silly. Give those villagers electricity,
>>> and all the usual electrical applicances other than computers,
>>> and let them become comfortable with them, THEN give them a
>>> computer. The power switch on the computer will be intuitive to
>>> them.
>>> You are confusing "intuitive" with "instinctive".
>>http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
>>Jeff Raskin, "Intuitive Equals Familiar", Communications of the ACM,
>>vol 37, no 9, Sept, 1994, pg 17.
>I'm confused. I'm not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing. I'd say
>the power switch on the computer is intuitive, because anyone who is
>likely to be using a computer is very likely to have experience with
>power switches on other things.
How intuitive is it if the power switch is mounted horizontally
and the labels are "0" and "1" and not on and off?
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Take a conglomeration of copper and silicon and make it useful
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:45:33 GMT
"westprog 2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:90j068$4tm$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <Ql0W5.217$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > "westprog 2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:908a58$4rf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > In article <pBmV5.3637$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> > > Personally, I would not let anyone near assembler until they have
> > > developed good coding practices.
>
> > Good code practices are not language dependant.
>
> Bad coding practices are, however. There are a lot of mistakes which
> will be caught by the compiler, or the VM in some languages, but which
> will run happily in assembler.
Teaching a pupil to rely on his/her knowledge and not a compiler to catch
mistakes isn't a bad thing at all. The first couple of tries will be very
frustrating. You learn quick though. Speaking from experience here. Besides,
most errors are logical and a compiler or VM can catch only the most
obvious. We humans are far better than they are in that area.
>
> > >If someone who knows Basic is taught
> > > assembler, by the time he learns an appropriate language, the bad
> > > habits will be thoroughly engrained.
>
> > And are just as easily corrected
>
> I disagree. Habits are hard to eradicate.
They're made easier when a student has no option but to correct them to make
his/her program work. Again, speaking from personal experience.
>
> > when one is presented a situation that
> > DEMANDS good habits. Being bitten in the ass a few times tends to
> > drill the point home.
>
> But many programming faults do not bite you in the ass immediately.
> Sometimes you can fix them by using a logical patch.
>
> Example - a novice programmer runs one past the end of an array (uses a
> <= instead of a <). The correct fix should be in the guard for the loop
> - but increasing the size of the array by one will work just as well.
An example of a logical error.that won't be caught by a high level compiler
or interpreter. The assembly student and the VB student will have to resort
to the exact same techniques.
>
> > >Someone who knows how to program
> > > properly can be taught the techniques of assembly (or machine code)
> > > programming without much harm. One does not start driving lessons by
> > > dismantling the engine.
>
> > As I said before, code practices are not language dependant.
>
> Nor are they intuitive, or picked up by trial and error.
If you think I advocate just sitting a pupil down in front of a terminal,
handing him/her an opcode book, and saying "OK, now, be a programmer",
you're mistaken. No-one said anything about ignoring the boolean table,
top-down or modular design, loop structure, data structures, or
documentation practices. All I advocate is parking their fannies in front of
a terminal to put those ideas into quick practice, ASAP.
>
> > As for the engine analogy, it doesn't apply. Programmers are not
> > trained to
> > "drive". Driving is their end user's job. A programmer's job is to
> > take a
> > conglomeration of copper and silicon and make it useful for more than
> > taking
> > up deskspace.
>
> No, the programmers job is to specify how data is to be extracted from
> a table. It is the job of the copper and silicon to take the
> programmers instructions and execute them.
And I'm arguing that the job gets done better and more efficiently when a
student truly understands the machine he/she is writting for.
>
> > To do that effectively requires more than a passing
> > aquaintance with the "engine".
>
> In almost every case, it does not. Even writing device drivers needs
> only a knowlege of the interface to the hardware being written to.
>
> What is needed is a knowlege of the underlying virtual machine. This
> might be Windows, Unix, the C RTL, the JVM, or some combination.
Have you ever noticed the plethora of poorley written device drivers today?
The Windows drivers in particular?
>
> > If a programmer wishes his/her efforts to be multi-platform. this low-
> > level knowledge is a must.
>
> > The sooner the "box" is de-mystified, the better.
>
> The learner programmer should be thinking about one thing - the
> program. Worrying about the box it will possibly run on should be left
> for later.
Why?
>
> > > Ideally, trainee programmers wouldn't be let near a computer for
> > > their first six months.
>
> > I have to disagree there. Hands on is the ONLY way to learn. Theory is
> > little more than trivia until it is applied.
>
> What programmers need to do when they start is to write programs, and
> to read them, and to see whether they will work or not. The easy
> availability of computing equipment has made the code/debug/fix cycle
> far too easy.
Good Lord, yes. I'm all for having it written out beforehand. That should
always be manditory. They still need to get their feet wet ASAP though. I'm
tired of all the hand-holding that passes for education today.
>
> My first programming job was on a lathe. There is quite an incentive to
> get it right first time under those circumstances.
LOL.
Been there. Did a lot of work upgrading and interfacing to milling machines
and lathes. And yes, mistakes are EXPENSIVE!
--
Tom Wilson
Registered Linux User #194021
http://counter.li.org
------------------------------
From: SwifT - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What does KDE do after all
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:58:04 +0100
On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> You must be joking.
Always ;-)
> Sockets are merely an inter-machine generalization of pipes, and
> nobody has called them limited.
Pipes or sockets?
I agree that pipes are very strong and helpfull, but the reason that
programmers (both Microsoft and Open Source) will use and develop sockets
must mean that there is a greater potential in it?
Not that long ago, I read that Linux (and other Open Source - projects)
are impressive because they think of something, work out that idea and
develop something more robust and sophisticated than any existing piece of
software is.
This is also true with pipes. Pipes are good. They are functional and
have aided people since the beginning of their lifetime (don't take it too
literally). But programmers have to move on. They develop other
algorithmes, stronger ones (or algorithmes with a potential to become
stronger). And it's just that that we have to support... Staying with
existing code can be usefull in some circumstances, but in general it
isn't...
> Maybe your problem is that you don't have enough communications
> and information processing theory to properly organize whatever it
> is that you want to send down a pipe.
True, I'm no wizzard in that game...
> if you define your syntax properly, then within the context of a
> single machine, you can do ANYTHING with pipes.
Define ANYTHING. You can't do ANYTHING with something that already exists.
To let something do ANYTHING, you'll have to develop it (->sockets).
--
SwifT
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:08:14 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:90itsd$1badi$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > How about setting your monitor refresh rate?
> >
> >
> > Not even an option under MS LoseDOS, so why are you bringing this up?
>
> As usual, you are very wrong.
> Not only it's an option, but windows will detect the safe refresh rates
for
> your resultion and recommend to you that you would only use those.
And this depends on the video and monitor driver combination.... Sometimes
you are only given two options, optimal and adaptor default. This can be a
pain in the ass if you, in my case, like to back the refresh down a few
notches to eek out better 3D hardware rendering performance in a game.
(Backing your refresh down from, say 120Hz to 60 Hz can give a noticable
improvement by easing the display adaptor's workload).
--
Tom Wilson
Registered Linux User #194021
http://counter.li.org
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Scott TOK)
Subject: Re: Dumbing down linux?
Date: 5 Dec 2000 18:12:08 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I have read a few things on this group and I am curious. There seems to
>be a consensus that RedHat is dumbing down Linux. I am using it, and it
>has all the things I need. I can still configure it from vi when I need
>too. It doesn't seem to be missing things from previous releases, with
>the exception of "glint" and I don't think I've seen that since 5.2.
>
>KDE and Gnome have added a lot of more <euphemism> user friendly
></euphemism> applets, but it is not as if they are replacing more hard
>core tools with the prettier ones. They are simply adding.
>
>So how are they "dumbing it down?"
Don't know about dumbing down... except the feel I get with a new
install is helplessness. It is too automatic and not so obvious to find
things that go awry. Maybe that's what they are talking about... the
installation _is_ more like W that it used to be.
But then... do a "top" on your KDE system and tell us how much memory
the X server takes up. Mine with fvwm2 is about 16M (was 13.7... do
thes things really grow?). A bit too big but not enough to make my code
swap. A few daemons take 1M+ and the xterms (bloat!) take up 2M+.
My turbulence code takes 230M at full resolution (80 hours for a single
run... this approaches usability).
I did SuSE 6.4 but had to fiddle with lilo to get it to see all the
memory. The PATH and MANPATH are still broken in the system defaults.
I guess the people who wrote these files do not agree with the Linux
manpath function.
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
sign the Linux Driver Petition: http://www.libranet.com/petition.html
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Gore & Bush
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:23:07 -0500
"Quantum Leaper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:OXRW5.107047$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Stefan Ohlsson wrote:
> > >
> > > Bob Hauck wrote:
> > > >On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:38:26 -0500, Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >>well to be honest the legal system never thought we would have such
a
> > > >>crybaby loser like we have with Gore so b/c of him we are having a
30
> > > >>day election instead of a 1 day election with some votes counted 5
> times
> > > >>and the other 95% counted once.
> > > >Gore did win the popular vote nationally, so your man Bush was really
> > > >the minority choice. If the tables were turned, would you be telling
> > > >Bush to concede or would you be insisting that he's only taking
> > > >advantage of the options available and saying that the electoral
> > > >college system needs to be thrown out?
> > > >
> > > I'm sorry to budge in, but I just want to say what I think of this
> > > and that is that it is just sad.
> > >
> > > Gore is afraid to lose if a recount isn't made
> > > Bush is afraid to lose if a recount _is_ made.
> > >
> > > Why couldn't they just have done the recount and then accept the
> > > result of it? Instead they act like children in a sandbox trying to
get
> > > votes included and excluded, recounts made and disallowed.
> >
> > There have been TWO recounts already.
> >
> > On the initial count: Bush won
> > On the first recount: Bush won
> > On the second recount: Bush won
> >
> > How many more do they need?
> >
> Are machines perfect? The makers of the voting machines say the is a
> margin of error and the winning count falls within that range.
> BTW Gore won the national election by 300,000 votes but so far is losing
the
> Electoral college vote.
As far as simple counting they are much more perfect than humans. Try
counting 500 sheets of paper with someone yelling random numbers in your
ear. It is a bitch.
The best quote of the day:
"How do you know 10,750 ballots havent been counted, if you didn't count
them?"
------------------------------
From: Aaron Ginn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux
Date: 05 Dec 2000 10:09:31 -0700
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Act like an adult, and I'll treat you like one.
Oh the irony!
> Until then, I'll treat you like some playground-jerk, as that is
> congruent with your current behavior.
>
> Do you get it, rectum-face?
That's it, Aaron. Congratulations on becoming the only entry in my
killfile. Your constant childish insults add nothing to the
discussion in this forum. You are the antithesis of a Linux
advocate. You would do well to read and memorize the Linux Advocacy
HOWTO. You are by far the most annoying poster in this newsgroup, and
that is indeed an impressive accomplishment with posters the likes of
Chad Myers, MH, and claire_lynn here.
And before you accuse me of being a Wintroll, please check the
headers.
And let me be about the one thousandth person to say your sig is
annoying.
--
Aaron J. Ginn Phone: 480-814-4463
Motorola SemiCustom Solutions Pager: 877-586-2318
1300 N. Alma School Rd. Fax : 480-814-4463
Chandler, AZ 85226 M/D CH260 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: What does KDE do after all
Date: 5 Dec 2000 17:41:51 GMT
On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:58:04 +0100, SwifT - wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>
>This is also true with pipes. Pipes are good. They are functional and
>have aided people since the beginning of their lifetime (don't take it too
>literally). But programmers have to move on. They develop other
>algorithmes, stronger ones (or algorithmes with a potential to become
>stronger). And it's just that that we have to support... Staying with
>existing code can be usefull in some circumstances, but in general it
>isn't...
This is sort of like the "luddite mentality". Sometimes, people get so
hung up on a particular paradigm that they mistakenly believe that the
paradigm in question is the be all and end all, and why ever use
anything else.
Pipes and shell commands are nice, but they are limited, and they don't
do everything. The same goes for structured programming, C programming,
and object oriented programming.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Light Bulb Part 2
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:44:24 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> kiwiunixman wrote:
> All of this discussion about Microsoft renting apps with .NET
> got me to thinking...what are we facing if, in fact, Microsoft
> does start renting apts???
>
> Microsoft Apts 2000
>
<snip>
A buddy of mine is doing some Windows programming today.
Hack/Crash/Reboot
Hack/Crash/Reboot
I emailed your little diatribe to him and he told me to tell you to fuck
off.
I think he liked it ;)
--
Tom Wilson
Registered Linux User #194021
http://counter.li.org
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: What does KDE do after all
Date: 5 Dec 2000 17:46:44 GMT
On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 14:20:47 +0000, Donal K. Fellows wrote:
>Craig Kelley wrote:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) writes:
>And furthermore, for much real programming, the simple IPC model
>offered by pipes is better than the more sophisticated ones that are
>made available through the likes of sockets and CORBA. There is a
>*lot* more that can go wrong with bi-directional communication, and
>it is much harder to optimize...
What's "real programming" ?
Sure, CORBA and OO is not the be all and end all. Neither are pipes
and procedural programming.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:50:15 -0500
"." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:90gorg$enp$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> Chad Myers wrote:
> >> >
> >> > As well they should with Daley's Chicago and all the rumors (facts
rather)
> >> > of corruption, voter fraud, voter intimidation, coaching, etc that
cost
> >> > Nixon the election.
> >>
> >> Where's your source on this? Where is your proof?
>
> > Daley's iron grip of Chicago is a well known fact. If you do even some
> > passive research, you will find numerous accountings of organized voter
fraud
> > in Chicago. Everything ranging from dead people voting, to felons, to
bribing
> > homeless and poor voters with cigarettes, drugs, etc.
>
> Uhhmmm...Sweetie, I live in chicago and have for quite some time. You
obviously
> never have.
>
> Ive also met the mayor on a number of occasions, and have had the
opportunity to
> be social and professional with people close to him politically.
>
> While chicago is certianly corrupt for a wide variety of reasons and
causes,
> the ones you listed above are nothing more than a paranoid delusional
fantasy.
>
> No wonder you like windows so much, you believe everything you read, and
you
> do no thinking of your own at all.
I lived in Cicero for a while in the 80's. It was quite an interesting town.
I was astounded by the corruption and lawlessness. There was a bar accross
the street from Raceway Park which was frequented by police (in uniform)
further down the street NO BLACKS ALLOWED signs on windows of businesses.
Two major racetracks separated by an alley, poker machines in the bars and
small restaurants which paid cash. Much more I can't remember. One night I
actually witnessed one of the police officers, drunk and in uniform shoot a
bottle off the top of someones head. There was also something going on with
mob ties to the million vending machines everywhere and anywhere. Such as
cigarette machines inside grocery stores which sold cigarettes behind the
counter anyway. I though that was quite odd. It seemed like there was at
least one vending machine (especially cigarettes) inside EVERY business.
------------------------------
From: Scott Swarthout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 12:47:05 -0500
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "Adam Short" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:5mMW5.42$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > I wonder why they are so lazy that they can't put a simple warning box.
> >
> > Do Microsoft warn you that installing Windows will overwrite the MBR,
> making
> > Windows the only bootable OS? Do they hell! Plus the Windows setup routine
> > doesn't even ask about partitions. Unless you've used fdisk yourself
> > beforehand to sort out the partitioning, Windows will just sprawl into all
> > available space. No warnings about that one either. Just a little message
> > that helpfully tells you that the hard drive is being formatted for your
> > pleasure and delectation.
>
> No windows installation will repartition/format your HD.
> The closest thing to this is NT converting the FS you install it on to NTFS
> if you ask it too, and give you the option to convert or format to NTFS. And
> you are *asked* about it.
> Overwriting the MBR is indeed bad, but it cause no loss of data and is
> largely an annoiance.
Annoyance?! that's an understatement. Yes, I have lost data through
Winblows over-writing my MBR, after spending a fair amount of time
getting LILO to do all sorts of tasks, it got erased, I had to
re-install and re-program. That's a bit more than an annoyance.
------------------------------
From: Scott Swarthout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 12:51:44 -0500
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:31:57 +0200,
> > Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:15:03 +0200,
> > >> Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >"I R A Darth Aggie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> >> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:45:33 +0200,
> > >> >> Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, in
> > >> >> <90ftn4$qoko$[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> >> +
> > >> >> + "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >> >> + news:sqDW5.29923$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> >> + >
> > >> >> + > "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >> >> + > news:90ebn3$smj4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> >> + > >
> > >> >> + > >
> > >> >> + > > > Just read the guides first.
> > >> >> + > >
> > >> >> + > > I know that it is in the docs, the reason I've problems with
> it
> > >is
> > >> >that
> > >> >> + > > Redhat neglected to put a simple warning box through the
> > >> >installation.
> > >> >> + > > You may disagree, but on every other possibly distructive
> action,
> > >> >you
> > >> >> + get
> > >> >> + > a
> > >> >> + > > warning saying this may be dangerous. Why not on one of the
> most
> > >> >> + dangerous
> > >> >> + > > thing that you can do to your computer?
> > >> >> + >
> > >> >> + > Are you sure about that? I can't remember exactly which steps I
> > >used
> > >> >> + > on which distribution, but I am sure that I went through a
> > >workstation
> > >> >> + > and server install to see what you get and before it changed the
> > >> >> + partitions
> > >> >> + > it issued a warning about losing all contents on the hard disks.
> > >> >That
> > >> >> + > could have been Mandrake, or perhaps you used some unusual modes
> > >> >> + > expert/text, etc. that exposed a bug.
> > >> >> +
> > >> >> + Yes, I'm sure of it.
> > >> >> + A Server Installation in RedHat will wipe out every last bit of
> data
> > >> >you've
> > >> >> + on your system and will take it, without a *single warning*.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Perhaps the warning came before you expected it. I can't speak to
> > >> >> RedHat, but I know Debian puts up a warning of "you should back up
> > >> >> your data first, installing this software could wipe out everything
> > >> >> you've" very, very early on.
> > >> >
> > >> >No warning whatsoever during the installation of redhat server.
> > >> >Not early on or during the parts where you choose
> > >server/workstation/custom.
> > >> >None at all.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think you will find that even RedHat has printed in their
> > >> install manual this information. But you must be able to read.
> > >
> > >
> > >So must you, "No warning whatsoever *during the installation* of redhat
> > >server"
> > >
> >
> >
> > If you read the manual you will see how to avoid this.
> >
> > It would just appear you have to.
>
> I'm not coplaining about the lack of this information in the manual. In
> fact, I qouted from the manual some time ago, exactly about this part.
> I'm complaining that the *installation* doesn't warn you before it erase all
> the contents of your HDs.
> It has nothing to do with this appearing in the manual or not.
> It has everything to do with taking the five second coding to ask the user
> whatever they are aware this will erase all the contents of their HDs.
But why would you try installing an OS with out reading the Manual
first? Unless you are quite experienced... and know all the pit falls
already.
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