Linux-Advocacy Digest #681, Volume #32 Tue, 6 Mar 01 23:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Arthur Frain)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Arthur Frain)
Re: State of linux distros (Michael Vester)
Re: The Double Fucking ala MS... (Michael Vester)
Re: I am looking for a newsreader (Bill Antigates)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (J Sloan)
Re: Computing Power to Peak SOON! (WAS: Moore's Law, continued...) ("dabean")
Re: I am looking for a newsreader (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (J Sloan)
Re: Linux on it's way back to (CR Lyttle)
Re: Linux growth underscores threat to Microsoft (J Sloan)
Re: Microsoft screws itself again! (Bill Antigates)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (J Sloan)
Re: What does IQ measure? ("Interconnect")
Re: NT vs *nix performance (riceman)
Re: I am looking for a newsreader ("mmnnoo")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Arthur Frain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:13:39 -0800
WJP wrote:
> On 6 Mar 2001 18:35:14 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
> >On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:07:53 GMT, chrisv wrote:
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
> I totally agree with your last remark, Mr. Rebbechi, however, this is
> one subject that can prove to be a problem when a person is considering
> the "switch" to Linux - after having already purchased a Windows box.
<snip>
> Subsequently, when installing SuSE or Mandrake or any of the other
> distributions, I am at the mercy of whatever is available (either "built
> in" or "capable of being included"). If not available, then I must
> either do more searching, or leave that hardware non-functioning - with
> Linux, that is.
With a mix of hardware that dates from 1995 to late 2000 over
10 different machines (and a lot of upgrading), I've yet to
find a piece of hardware (NICs, CD, CD-RW, HD, scanner, printers)
that doesn't work with Linux.
Not only that, but SuSE actually detects the hardware automatically
and correctly, and only once. Win98 has a habit of continually
redetecting hardware and installing two sets of drivers for a single
card or device. Check the Windows Device Manager - it's always good
for a laugh to see what Windows thinks is there as opposed to what
really is (at least on every machine I've looked at lately).
And not only that, but the last thing I purchased was an HP business
inkjet printer. It won't work with Windows, even using the
HP-provided drivers. But since it's a Postscript capable printer,
it works fine with Linux, and I don't need to install any drivers.
> Perhaps my question is: doesn't this situation preclude individuals
> from switching to Linux? I would be insterested in knowing the number
> of users who, though willing to switch to Linux, are literally
> "turned-off" by lack of driver availability among the various
> distributions.
Interesting you should mention that, because my wife used Word
Perfect under Win98 until she got the new HP printer. When it
wouldn't work under Windows, she quit using Windows altogether.
Seems to go both ways.
There's also an interesting story on Infoworld about MS claiming
NICs that are on their HCL make MS-SQL run half as fast on
W2K as on NT. Windows seems to have compatibility problems too,
at least according to MS (if you want to believe them).
> Am I willing to return to the market place and shell out more money for
> "supported hardware" that provides the same functionality that I already
> have with Windows? Why should I have to?
You don't have to - use what works for you.
> Had I initially intended on switching to Linux before building these two
> machines, I would have been more "hardware" aware. However, that's not
> the case, and, furthermore, IMHO, many other current Windows users, both
> at home and in businesses, are in the same "driver-limited" boat that
> I'm in.
It's probably a good idea to be "hardware aware", but I've
never bothered and have never had a problem with Linux
supporting hardware. I do tend to make sure printers are
either Postscript or PCL compatible, or have some other
emulation Linux (Ghostscript actually) can support.
> And, as an aside, I did a web search the other day for Linux drivers for
> my ATI Rage 64 video card. And, to my amazement, I found a set of
> drivers - at a cost of $89 (US) - which is not too far away from the
> price I originally paid for the video card. It appears that I will be
> "stuck" with the svga Linux drivers for awhile, at least.
Not sure which ATI Rage 64 model you're referring to, but at least
3 of my computers have ATI Rage Pro III's which are 64 bit cards
and use the Mach64 driver which has been available under XFree86
(that comes with every distribution at no extra charge) for at
least 3 years. Sounds like you don't know how to set up X (and
SuSE and I expect Mandrake should do that automatically anyway).
Arthur
------------------------------
From: Arthur Frain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:17:55 -0800
Bob Hauck wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:44:09 GMT, Pete Goodwin
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >And how _old_ is man now?
More than 100K years IIRC - at least at this rev
level.
> >Does it have linking and cross referencing
> >yet?
> It does if you view the man pages using, say, the KDE help viewer.
Or the Gnome help viewer, or TK-Man, or several
others.
Arthur
------------------------------
From: Michael Vester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: State of linux distros
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:18:19 -0700
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
>
> Reefer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> : A superior OS like Win2k wants to have SOMETHING to work with, not some
> : leftover hw from your childhood...
>
> Spot the flawed thinking
>
> Clue for the clueless: Erroneous defintion of "superior OS"
>
It is superior, superior only to losedos NT, 95, 98, ME, 3.11, 3.1, 3.0
It does not want SOMETHING to work with, it NEEDS a substantial amount of
hardware just to boot. Leftover hardware from my childhood would have
only 32k, but that was enough to support 20 users. I see no evidence that
losedos is a multi-user and multi-tasking os.
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
<snip>
--
Michael Vester
A credible Linux advocate
"The avalanche has started, it is
too late for the pebbles to vote"
Kosh, Vorlon Ambassador to Babylon 5
------------------------------
From: Michael Vester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Double Fucking ala MS...
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:21:01 -0700
snoopygates wrote:
>
> w2k just came out and they haven't sat down to fix the bugs. Now they are
> forcing the new windows on us. When will it ever stop?
>
Not as long as the can make piles of money.
> I remember when I used windows 95 and it just kept locking up, due to lack
> of resources, and then when I upgraded to windows 98, the blue screen of
> death was ever more present. It was the same problem all over again. Not
> enough CPU and Ram to run all the programs I wanted too. On Linux, it is
> different, it allows you to run several programs at a time with limited CPU
> and ram, and doesn't ever lock up, or show the blue screen. Why is this
> such a problem for Microsoft to overcome?? Is it because they want to suck
> out as much money possible from your purchases of their products? Is that
> all that is important to them? It would appear so.
Bingo.
--
Michael Vester
A credible Linux advocate
"The avalanche has started, it is
too late for the pebbles to vote"
Kosh, Vorlon Ambassador to Babylon 5
------------------------------
From: Bill Antigates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I am looking for a newsreader
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:32:27 -0800
Brad Sims wrote:
> Knode is ok but I want something like Xnews, that I can run on
> my linux partition (SuSE 7.0, KDE 2.1). I have tried krn and did
> not like it either.
>
>
Try Pan. It can even handle binaries. Real nice and fast.
http://pan.rebelbase.com/
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:33:15 GMT
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:07:53 GMT, chrisv wrote:
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
> >
> >>Done several Linux installs, on about 25 different hardware configurations,
> >>including laptops, custom builds, Dell machines, and dreaded laptops.
> >>Never had hardware problems with supported hardware.
> >
> >That's funny, I've had problems with the majority of the machines I've
> >tried it on! Examples: Voodoo3 not supported. Adaptec (!) SCSI card
> >not supported.
>
> Hint: It's easier if you use supported hardware.
>
What's really funny about that clown's posting is that
the voodoo 3 is about the best supported video card
you can get for Linux.
Same with adaptec - I've been running linux on adaptec
scsi cards for years, no problem!
This guy's just trolling, he has no clue what he's talking
about!
jjs
------------------------------
From: "dabean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Computing Power to Peak SOON! (WAS: Moore's Law, continued...)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:30:14 -0000
"Bloody Viking" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9845tn$d6f$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Ian Pulsford ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> : So does Intel's.
>
> They can still make the Pentium Plateau, but the price will drop and they
> won't need to build an even costlier fabricating plant for a faster chip.
I
> suspect the watercooled chips will end up in the servers with the last
> aircooled chips in the last desktops.
>
> : Sooner or later we'll have fast asynchronous CPUs that are more power
> : efficient than current synchronous processors, and no doubt other
> : advances to keep the ball rolling.
>
> Then, there's the Moore's Law corollary. As you widen the bus, integrating
> dual CPUs, the cost of fabrication continues to escalate. The flawed chip
loss
> rate will be ridiculous. At some point - and soon - chips won't be able to
go
> faster but will have to improve by an ever-widening bus. 64-bit is soon,
and
> that means all the more transistors to shove onto the same real estate.
And
> more transistors, despite being smaller, means you hit that heat-fluc-per-
> unit-real-estate limit all the same. A good move is at the aircool 32-bit
> limit, switch to watercool 64-bit. From that point, it's bigger tracts of
real
> estate per chip.
>
And at that point some very interesting non main stream concepts such as
lets see.
SMT (Simultaneous Multi Threading) be used in future versions of the Alpha
processor. In simple terms its the of making one processor look like several
software applications. I can't be bothered to explain it further as
http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/smt/index.html does a far better job
then i ever could.
multiple cores on a die. Adopted by IBM for POWER4 and Sun Microsystems for
its MAJC processor
> The latest Pentium v.4.0 chips are dissipating 40 watts of heat as they
run.
> Look at that CPU in your computer. The 486SX 25 had no fins. The Pentium
v.1.0
> 75MHZ does. The Pentium v.2.0 at 233MHZ has a fan plus fins. See the
pattern?
> Speed dissipates heat. Even if Intel made a "Pentium Insane!" with liquid
> helium, before that the temperature gradient in the wafer itself would
crack
> it. The heat limit is merely coming faster than the molecular limit.
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if the 1GHZ Pentium v.4.0 (the "80986") has the
fins
> and a forced draft blower to cool it or peltier junctions plus forced
draft
> blower. I bet the Pentium v.5.0 ("801086" aka "decium") will either be
> watercool or be pushing the edges of the envelope on aircool. The first
> watercool chip warns thar the end of the line on the desktop is coming
fast.
>
> As cooling requirements - which does not follow Moore's Law - worsen and
> costlier chips arrive, consumers will see that the upgrade-go-round was a
> scam. Microsoft depends on Moore's Law as much as it does Copyright. Once
> Moore's Law is repealed on the desktop, it's Game Over for a LOT of
players.
>
> --
> FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
> The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
> The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: I am looking for a newsreader
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:41:44 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bill Antigates wrote:
>Brad Sims wrote:
>
>> Knode is ok but I want something like Xnews, that I can run on
>> my linux partition (SuSE 7.0, KDE 2.1). I have tried krn and did
>> not like it either.
>>
>>
>
>Try Pan. It can even handle binaries. Real nice and fast.
>
>http://pan.rebelbase.com/
>
SLRN for performance and ease of use.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:43:24 GMT
chrisv wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
>
> >Done several Linux installs, on about 25 different hardware configurations,
> >including laptops, custom builds, Dell machines, and dreaded laptops.
> >Never had hardware problems with supported hardware.
>
> That's funny, I've had problems with the majority of the machines I've
> tried it on! Examples: Voodoo3 not supported.
Let's call this troll's bluff:
# lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Acer Laboratories Inc. [ALi] M1541 (rev 04)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Acer Laboratories Inc. [ALi] M5243 (rev 04)
00:02.0 USB Controller: Acer Laboratories Inc. [ALi] M5237 USB (rev 03)
00:03.0 Bridge: Acer Laboratories Inc. [ALi] M7101 PMU
00:07.0 ISA bridge: Acer Laboratories Inc. [ALi] M1533 PCI to ISA Bridge
[Aladdin IV] (rev c3)
00:09.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82557 [Ethernet Pro 100] (rev
08)
00:0a.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Live! EMU10000 (rev 06)
00:0a.1 Input device controller: Creative Labs SB Live! (rev 06)
00:0d.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82557 [Ethernet Pro 100] (rev
08)
00:0f.0 IDE interface: Acer Laboratories Inc. [ALi] M5229 IDE (rev c1)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: 3Dfx Interactive, Inc. Voodoo 3 (rev 01)
What's this on the last line, a Voodoo 3?
IIRC I bought it in 1999, and this card has never seen
anything but Linux.
BTW 3D gaming has been sweet!
> Adaptec (!) SCSI card
> not supported.
LOL!
If you're going to lie, try to pick something that's not
so easily verified!
jjs
------------------------------
From: CR Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux on it's way back to
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:43:53 GMT
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:18:22 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> >In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Bloody Viking
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> >If Microsoft develops the next "killer app" (parse that any way you
> >like :-) ), Linux may run into major problems. Even now, things like
> >DeCSS have been thrown into a gray legal area, which means Linux may
> >have problems playing DVDs --
>
> No, it doesn't. It means that Linux needs to play by the same rules as
> everyone else.
>
You forget that Linux is a revolution. Linux is creating a whole new
game with a whole new set of rules. Let everyone else play by *our*
rules.
>> SNIP<<
> --
> Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
> elflord at panix dot com
--
Russ
<http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
Home of the Universal Automotive Test Set
Linux Open Source (GPL) Project
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth underscores threat to Microsoft
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:44:47 GMT
Nigel Feltham wrote:
> > > >"Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer has acknowledged that
> > > >Linux has become its No. 1 threat, and
> > > >the IDC numbers underscore that position.
> > > >Although the figures show that Windows shipments
> > > >increased 20 percent, Linux outpaced it with a 24
> > > >percent increase."
> > > >
> > > >What's weird about it is that, with Windows at
> > > >41%, and Linux at 27%, 68% of the server market is
> > > >running on PC OS's (more if you count Netware).
> >
> > um no.
> >
> > With Linux at 27% and "other Unix" at whatever it was,
> > it shows that Unix oses have a healthy share. I expect
> > the Unix figure to increase, if anything.
> >
>
> Don't forget that 41% windows + 27% linux doesn't really mean 68% use
> of PC's - what percentage of those linux machines run on non-PC hardware
> (like Sun/SGI hardware, IBM mainframes, PPC).
Indeed, 41% windows means 41% use of PCs.
Unix != PC os.
jjs
------------------------------
From: Bill Antigates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft screws itself again!
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:48:05 -0800
> Without Noore's Law, people will no longer be able to tolerate increasing
> bloat. Combined with Linux on these icewater cooled beasts, Microsoft
> can't survive. A fundimental limit will be reached soon, that being heat
> dissipation on the desktop. Servers can use refrigerated chips (integrated
> freon-cooling?) but Linux already is gaining good on the server market.
>
But... isn't "Mr. Paperclip" crucial to computing? I can hardly wait for
the hi-rez skin-textured speech-capable version of the Paperclip. Wow,
that means I'd have to string together a few 2Ghz chips to give
Mr.Paperclip the strength to suggest when to use commas and periods.
...better start saving some $$.
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:49:31 GMT
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:11:35 GMT, J Sloan wrote:
> >pip wrote:
> >
> >> Doh!
> >>
> >> They are not buzzwords.
> >
> >Coulda fooled me -
> >
> >> I don't want to trade buzzwords. I want to illustrate the differences in
> >> OS's as asked to.
> >
> >Ok, then instead of parroting the ms "innovation" buzzwords,
> >explain why each of them is unique to the windows pc platform
> >and why you don't think there is or could be a Unix equivalent.
>
> No need to get defensive here -- and accusations that Pip is
> "parroting the ms" anything are pretty weak.
>
> He's basically talking about component programming. In Linux-speak,
> it's a lot like DCOP, CORBA, and Bonobo.
I supplied pretty much that same list, are you sure we
are on the sane page?
I also mentioned drm/dri/openGL and others. Whoever it was
(are you sure it was pip?) that claimed windows was unique
in having these "innovations" was just plumb mistaken.
jjs
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: What does IQ measure?
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:00:09 +1100
> BULLSHIT.
>
> There is are VERY strong correlations between doing well on a
well-designed
> IQ test, and the ability to quickly learn and perform well at any other
> randomly selected task. (Quickly as compared to the rate at which
> an IQ 100 person [statistical mean] would learn).
>
To me IQ tests can only measure a *certain* current level of education /
knowledge.
I don't believe they can fundamentally measure the capacity of an individual
to
1. be creative
2. measure the potential of that creativity.
Which of course explains why some extremely High IQ individuals are complete
morons with attitude problems in the sense of being a person.
------------------------------
From: riceman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.linux.sux,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT vs *nix performance
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 04:02:09 GMT
hear hear
Rich Blacker wrote:
> i think that's just it: microsoft fans like bill thinking for them, whereas
> linux fans like to do their own thinking and solve problems themselves.
>
> why let microsoft make your decisions for you?
------------------------------
From: "mmnnoo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I am looking for a newsreader
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 04:05:06 GMT
I am using Pan and like it. It isn't all that stable, but
I find it good enough to be useful and I like the interface
pretty well.
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Brad Sims"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Knode is ok but I want something like Xnews, that I can run on my linux
> partition (SuSE 7.0, KDE 2.1). I have tried krn and did not like it
> either.
>
>
------------------------------
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