Linux-Advocacy Digest #451, Volume #33 Sun, 8 Apr 01 13:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day. (Mathew)
Re: Linux is just another Unix (yawn) ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Does OSS evolve? (Wilbert Kruithof)
Re: Too expensive, too invasive (Bob Hauck)
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message (Bob Hauck)
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message (Bob Hauck)
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message (Bob Hauck)
Re: NT is stagnant while Linux explodes (Johan Kullstam)
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message (Bob Hauck)
Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message (Bob Hauck)
Re: Xerox bans XP = eXPerimental beta (Goldhammer)
Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day. ("Aaron R.
Kulkis")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
From: Mathew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day.
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 01:33:02 +1000
On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> Mathew wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> >
> > > "Scott D. Erb" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Scott D. Erb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, I suspect Marx would be spinning in
> > > > > > > his grave to see his ideas associated with Stalin or Mao. Ideological
> > > > > > > development is complex.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have to address this before I address anything else, because I think this
> > > > > > is pivotal.
> > > > > > Marx was a monster. If you read Manifesto you will find:
> > > >
> > > > Marx was naive. He believed that if you got rid of capitalism you could have
>complete
> > > > liberty, the state would whither away, you would end exploitation. He was
>motivated
> > > > by the industrial slums, and how horrid the workers were paid. He wanted the
>workers
> > > > to rise up against that, and believed if they did they could collectively
>control the
> > > > means of production and everyone would be better off.
> > >
> > >
> > > And yet, you still promote the policies based on the theories of this
> > > man WHO YOU HAVE JUST ADMITTED was a fool.
> >
> > And you promoted dealing with a totalitarian facist fundamentalist Iran.
> > Now tell me how you are not a Commuinist?
>
> Iran is fascist now....
They have been fascist since the Ayatollah took over,but also a bit
under the Shah.
>
> Must be some new definition of fascist with which the rest of the
> English-speaking is unfamiliar.
>
> Or by "fascist" do you merely mean "non-Communist"
You should know what fascist means.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > He was wrong. Dead wrong. Tragically wrong. But there is no way Marx or
>Engels (and
> > > > I've read a lot of their private writings, including a lot of Engels stuff in
>the
> > > > original German) would have ever supported the kind of brutal tactics of a
>Stalin, Mao
> > > > or Pol Pot.
> > >
> > >
> > > And yet, you still push for the kinds of policies which can ONLY be
> > > successfully implemented by a Stalin, Mao, or Pol P
> >
> > > Why is that?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > 1. Complete liquidation of private property
> > > > > > 2. Liquidation of the family, introduction of "official, open mutual
> > > > > > ownership of wives"
> > > > > > 3. Children taken from families are brought up by community (Hillary,
> > > > > > hello!)
> > > > > > 4. Industrial armies, not employer - employee, (and that is from the guy
>who
> > > > > > LOVES proletariat!)
> > > > > > 5. Central credit by central banks with total banking monopoly for the
> > > > > > State.
> > > > > > 6. Age when children start working - 9 years of age (Resolution of Geneva
> > > > > > International Congress).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If this is not the most monstrous document in the history of the
> > > > > > civilization, please, state which one is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This system was implemented four times almost totally - in Hitler's
> > > > > > concentration camps, Stalin's GULAG and Mao's re-educational settlements
>and
> > > > > > Pol Pots' Cambodia camps.
> > > > > > Partially - USSR, Red China, Vietnam, North Korea.
> > > > > > Superficially - Poland, E. Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Czeckoslovakia
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why would Marx be spiining other than out of excitment?
> > > > > > Typical (I hate this word) socialist attitude - they all have aberrated
> > > > > > Marx. NO! THEY DIDN'T!
> > > > > > All socialists remain civilized untill they seize the power. Then the
> > > > > > Marxist bestiary begins.
> > > > > > EVERY TIME.
> > > >
> > > > Marx was fantasizing about what he thought would lead to a utopia. He was
>wrong. He
> > > > thought the state would whither away, it didn't. His goal was to end
>alienation and
> > > > create perfect liberty, his ideas did not lead that direction. His errors were
> > > > typical of 19th century social science (over-determination, bad predictions),
>and
> > > > ultimately the errors in his theories helped lead to the kinds of horror you
> > > > describe. But to demonize Marx personally because of that is simply
>misguided, and of
> > > > course irrelevant.
> > > >
> > > > At the very least now Social Democrats and most leftists recognize that the
>vision of
> > > > "scientific socialism" espoused by Lenin and the Communists was not only
>wrong, but
> > > > evil in its actions. Social Democracy does not lead to the kind of evil you
> > > > describe. Sweden has no gulags, Norway is not run like Pol Pot's China.
>You're
> > > > overstating your case. The danger comes not from Marx, but from any attempt to
> > > > centralize power to try to shape society without that power being accountable
>to the
> > > > people. Marx was dead wrong not to understand or realize that, but I am
>convinced
> > > > that he and Engels personally would have been appalled by what later was done
>in their
> > > > name. Their theory was a failure, but to demonize them is simply silly.
> > > > cheers, scott
> > > > http://violet.umf.maine.edu/~erb/
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis
> > > Unix Systems Engineer
>
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> K: Truth in advertising:
> Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
> Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
> Special Interest Sierra Club,
> Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
>
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
>
>
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is just another Unix (yawn)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:33:21 -0400
Chad Everett wrote:
>
> On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:55:35 GMT, Peter R. Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Linux is the kernel, the last ingredient of a complete GNU OS. Given the
> >> look n' feel, it's easy to see how people use Linux and UNIX sa synonyms
> >> given the amount of GNUware found on UNIXes.
> >>
> >
> >Actually, the Linux kernel isn't the last ingredient of a complete GNU OS.
> >The Hurd kernel is the last ingredient of a complete GNU OS. The Linux
> >kernel just happens to be filling that void right now.
> >
> >Please read this page:
> >
> >http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html
> >
>
> Dream...dream, dream, dream.
Everly Brothers...
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: Wilbert Kruithof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Does OSS evolve?
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:37:29 +0200
Hello!
Because Sam Heads has convinced me to change my question, I do it
hereby.
I have read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", and after that I thought
that it would be better that I changed my question to: "Does OSS
evolve?" The word "evolve" and "evolutionary" are used in that *very*
nice article, but that does not says it's well chosen.
After reading the nearly 70 replies on my initial question again I think
it's better that we start with a less radical point of discussion. If
you think it isn't necessary, just say it.
So, if you are able to answer my question, please reply. Oh, thanks for
all replies on the initial question!!
With kind regards,
Wilbert Kruithof
P.S
It may be a better idea if I would start a new thread, but it's so
related to my previous question that I have decided to do not.
Wilbert Kruithof wrote:
> Let me explain why I am asking this question. First of all I want to say that
> it's not my intention to discuss about advantages of several operating systems,
> nor software/hardware vendors. I am also not a newbie to unix (clones), so no
> RTFM, or www.opensource.org. Do not see this as presumption, or something like
> that.
>
> The only thing I am asking for is an answer to above question. *What* way is
> Open Source developing?
--
Linux Prometheus 2.4.2 #1 Tue Mar 20 20:42:22 CET 2001 i686
Homepage: http://home.hccnet.nl/wilbert.kruithof/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Too expensive, too invasive
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:43:31 GMT
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 05:04:59 GMT, T. Max Devlin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Said Bob Hauck in alt.destroy.microsoft on Fri, 06 Apr 2001 15:54:19
>>This is fixed in KDE 2.1. The support processes will terminate after a
>>minute or so of no KDE apps running.
>
>Someday, I hope, this will all make sense. Your post fills me with
>optimism, Bob. ;-)
Well, in the interest of creating some sense, here's the short
explanation.
More sophisticated KDE applications make use of the advanced KDE suport
services such as the DCOP component model and the MCOP multimedia
server. Konqueror is one of the apps that do this. When you start one
of these applications they (or, rather, the libraries they are linked
with) check to see if the required servers are running. If not, they
are started. They appear in ps as several "kdeinit" processes.
These servers are supposed to terminate themselves once all of the apps
that use them have terminated. If you are running the full KDE
desktop, this won't be until you log out (because the desktop uses
them). If you are running KDE apps under another desktop, it may be
anytime during the session. There's some delay built in, presumably to
prevent excessive starting and stopping as the user switches apps.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:43:36 GMT
On 8 Apr 2001 00:49:32 -0700, robert@- <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bob says...
>>I don't prefer to download 150 MB files, and sometimes only want to
>>grab a part of the distribution.
>The original poster has a valid point.
Not really. The files are all in a single directory tree. Downloading
them is no harder than downloading a single file. Unless you are
looking to make a big deal out of it for advocacy fodder.
>What is so hard if KDE provides one large tgz file that contains all
>the other files as an OPTION in addition to the current system?
If you package it up I'm sure the KDE volunteers will be glad to accept
it. Then some dumbass will make a post here about how hard it is to
extract tar files and how confusing it is that there is more than one
option.
>You need to think outside the box, which from your ranting you seem
>to unable to do.
I think people who use phrases like "think outside the box" sound like
wannabe marketroids.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:43:34 GMT
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 04:01:02 GMT, WGAF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Like RPM? I installed KDE 2.1.1 (upgrade from 2.1) by doing this:
>>
>> $ for i in qt kdebase kdelibs kdegames ...; do rpm -U $i/*; done
>
> As oppose to downloading a single executable, running it once the dowload
> finished and it's done? Linux really shines in that respect, doesn't it?
Yeah, I really like having five different installers messing with my
system. It is really cool to have no way to find out what they
installed or when. Windows really shines in the area of rational system
management doesn't it?
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:43:38 GMT
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 19:51:35 +0000, Gary Hallock
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<sarcasm warning>
>You can always get the CD if you don't want to download all the files:
>http://www.kde.org/cdrom.html
But that's not fair! It isn't free, and Linux is supposed to be free
isnt' it? You Linvocates are all big liars!
>And if you want to download, why one file at a time? You can download
>multiple files at once.
Impossible. Linux doesn't have any good file managers or browsers or
anything else an average user needs.
>Download the files all at once and then:
>
>rpm -U *.rpm
That's way too hard. You had to _type_!! Man, you Linux geeks are all
big losers who don't understand the average user who has better things
to do than to learn how to use the box he paid $2000 for.
You _hafta_have_ a self-extracting binary to click on! Get outa the
'80s man!
>What is not real about Gnome and KDE?
They aren't made by Microsoft!
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT is stagnant while Linux explodes
From: Johan Kullstam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:26:12 GMT
"WGAF" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Johan Kullstam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "WGAF" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > "667 Neighbor of the Beast" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > 41% is not rules. Anyway, since Linux is is Unix, let us combine the
> > > > Unix and Linux scores. Now it reads:
> > >
> > > Except for the fact that Unix is not Linux and one shell not combine
> them
> > > into one. Unless one knows nothing about either of the OSes....
> >
> > while legally, linux is not allowed to call itself unix (which is a
> > trademark of the open group), in practice, linux is a unix.
> >
> > in the language of the drug-war, unix is a gateway drug to linux and
> > vice-versa.
> >
> > the first big misunderstand is that linux is unix; the second big
> > misunderstanding is that linux is not unix.
>
> As I said, "Unless one knows nothing about either of the OSes...."
speak for yourself.
--
J o h a n K u l l s t a m
[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Don't Fear the Penguin!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:43:41 GMT
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:05:12 GMT, WGAF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, the spirit of Linux is to circumvent. If that doesn't work, then
> crack it...
Did you make that up all by your ownself? You're so clever!
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: lack of linux billionaires explained in one easy message
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:43:43 GMT
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:49:26 GMT, WGAF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What is Solaris has to do with questionable distribution for KDE?
Having trouble following the thread are we? "Robert@" made the argument
that the KDE installation is the result of a general "Unix mentality".
> The present distribution system for Linux sucks.
Well, then Linux will die out and you'll have to find something else to
make idiotic statements about.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Goldhammer)
Subject: Re: Xerox bans XP = eXPerimental beta
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:47:30 GMT
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 00:14:06 -0700, GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Now that I look at it long enough, XP,... it looks like a dead emoticon
>with its tongue hanging out.
Those are prophetic words.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/18164.html
--
Don't think you are. Know you are.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day.
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:46:01 -0400
Mathew wrote:
>
> On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>
> > Mathew wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Scott D. Erb" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Scott D. Erb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However, I suspect Marx would be spinning in
> > > > > > > > his grave to see his ideas associated with Stalin or Mao. Ideological
> > > > > > > > development is complex.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have to address this before I address anything else, because I think
>this
> > > > > > > is pivotal.
> > > > > > > Marx was a monster. If you read Manifesto you will find:
> > > > >
> > > > > Marx was naive. He believed that if you got rid of capitalism you could
>have complete
> > > > > liberty, the state would whither away, you would end exploitation. He was
>motivated
> > > > > by the industrial slums, and how horrid the workers were paid. He wanted
>the workers
> > > > > to rise up against that, and believed if they did they could collectively
>control the
> > > > > means of production and everyone would be better off.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And yet, you still promote the policies based on the theories of this
> > > > man WHO YOU HAVE JUST ADMITTED was a fool.
> > >
> > > And you promoted dealing with a totalitarian facist fundamentalist Iran.
> > > Now tell me how you are not a Commuinist?
> >
> > Iran is fascist now....
>
> They have been fascist since the Ayatollah took over,but also a bit
> under the Shah.
Iran has a socialist, vertically integrated economy.
If not, then it ain't fascist.
Merely being a non-Communist police state doesn't make a government "fascist"
hope the helps, marxist bastard.
>
> >
> > Must be some new definition of fascist with which the rest of the
> > English-speaking is unfamiliar.
> >
> > Or by "fascist" do you merely mean "non-Communist"
>
> You should know what fascist means.
Yeah, it's right-wing socialism, characterized by vertical integration
of the industrial sector.
Since Iran doesn't even have an industrial sector worth noting,
it fails the test.
That doesn't mean that it's not a police state...it's merely
a police state that *ISN'T* fascist.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > He was wrong. Dead wrong. Tragically wrong. But there is no way Marx or
>Engels (and
> > > > > I've read a lot of their private writings, including a lot of Engels stuff
>in the
> > > > > original German) would have ever supported the kind of brutal tactics of a
>Stalin, Mao
> > > > > or Pol Pot.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And yet, you still push for the kinds of policies which can ONLY be
> > > > successfully implemented by a Stalin, Mao, or Pol P
> > >
> > > > Why is that?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Complete liquidation of private property
> > > > > > > 2. Liquidation of the family, introduction of "official, open mutual
> > > > > > > ownership of wives"
> > > > > > > 3. Children taken from families are brought up by community (Hillary,
> > > > > > > hello!)
> > > > > > > 4. Industrial armies, not employer - employee, (and that is from the guy
>who
> > > > > > > LOVES proletariat!)
> > > > > > > 5. Central credit by central banks with total banking monopoly for the
> > > > > > > State.
> > > > > > > 6. Age when children start working - 9 years of age (Resolution of Geneva
> > > > > > > International Congress).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If this is not the most monstrous document in the history of the
> > > > > > > civilization, please, state which one is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This system was implemented four times almost totally - in Hitler's
> > > > > > > concentration camps, Stalin's GULAG and Mao's re-educational settlements
>and
> > > > > > > Pol Pots' Cambodia camps.
> > > > > > > Partially - USSR, Red China, Vietnam, North Korea.
> > > > > > > Superficially - Poland, E. Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Czeckoslovakia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why would Marx be spiining other than out of excitment?
> > > > > > > Typical (I hate this word) socialist attitude - they all have aberrated
> > > > > > > Marx. NO! THEY DIDN'T!
> > > > > > > All socialists remain civilized untill they seize the power. Then the
> > > > > > > Marxist bestiary begins.
> > > > > > > EVERY TIME.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marx was fantasizing about what he thought would lead to a utopia. He was
>wrong. He
> > > > > thought the state would whither away, it didn't. His goal was to end
>alienation and
> > > > > create perfect liberty, his ideas did not lead that direction. His errors
>were
> > > > > typical of 19th century social science (over-determination, bad
>predictions), and
> > > > > ultimately the errors in his theories helped lead to the kinds of horror you
> > > > > describe. But to demonize Marx personally because of that is simply
>misguided, and of
> > > > > course irrelevant.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the very least now Social Democrats and most leftists recognize that the
>vision of
> > > > > "scientific socialism" espoused by Lenin and the Communists was not only
>wrong, but
> > > > > evil in its actions. Social Democracy does not lead to the kind of evil you
> > > > > describe. Sweden has no gulags, Norway is not run like Pol Pot's China.
>You're
> > > > > overstating your case. The danger comes not from Marx, but from any attempt
>to
> > > > > centralize power to try to shape society without that power being
>accountable to the
> > > > > people. Marx was dead wrong not to understand or realize that, but I am
>convinced
> > > > > that he and Engels personally would have been appalled by what later was
>done in their
> > > > > name. Their theory was a failure, but to demonize them is simply silly.
> > > > > cheers, scott
> > > > > http://violet.umf.maine.edu/~erb/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Aaron R. Kulkis
> > > > Unix Systems Engineer
> >
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
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