Linux-Advocacy Digest #245, Volume #34 Sun, 6 May 01 04:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! (GreyCloud)
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! (GreyCloud)
Re: Linux has one chance left......... (Terry Porter)
Re: MS Must be getting really desperate (Terry Porter)
Re: MS pushing retailers to hide Linux? (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux is paralyzed before it even starts (GreyCloud)
Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux disgusts me (Terry Porter)
Re: Windos is *unfriendly* (GreyCloud)
Re: where's the linux performance? (Ian Pulsford)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 00:02:14 -0700
Daniel Johnson wrote:
>
> "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Daniel Johnson wrote:
> > > Well, I mean is. Windows has been much hindered
> > > by being lashed to DOS as it has been.
> >
> > I repeat.
>
> Yes, you sure do.
>
> > You keep saying IS. IS means the present. We ar discussing at
> > least a decade ago.
>
> It was true then, too.
>
> [snip]
> > > > Now, are you also saying you cant printing wasnt possible under
> DR-DOS?
> > >
> > > No, I'm saying the each ap had to roll it's own. That is
> > > a big problem.
> >
> > It wasnt then. We printed just fine then.
>
> Hardly. You printed plaintext, or you
> got a driver for you particular app and printer.
>
> It was a mess.
>
> [snip]
> > > I don't know if that was true. I know that Windows would
> > > work on DR-DOS, more or less. But that's no great
> > > improvement.
> >
> > Since DR-DOS was superior to MS-DOS, Windows on DR-DOS Should have been
> > superior to Windows on MS-DOS, except Micro$oft made sure DR-DOS had
> > problems. And M$ executives in charge of those things have been quoted.
> > Here. To you. You ignore them.
>
> Windows *did* run on DR-DOS until Windows 95 came along.
>
> It just didn't make it appreciably better. DR-DOS isn't
> enough better than MS-DOS to make a difference.
>
> [snip]
> > > If developers can't make apps for Unix that are as good
> > > as the apps for Windows, then Unix will lose- users
> > > will go for the *good* apps and therefore Windows.
> > >
> > > The good desktop apps are on Windows because it
> > > provides the tools to make them.
> >
> > Really. So. Tell me whats wrong with Applixware, xmms, Netscape, x-chat,
> > Pan, GQview, Electric Eyes, the GIMP, CD Paranoia and the rest of the X
> > based windows apps.
>
> Well, there are some problems that span the entire set of
> apps in a sense. There is no user interface consistancy;
> each app is different. This is getting better- they are
> now copying Windows more and more- but it's a problem.
>
> X Windows apps also have problems with interoperability;
> clipboard and drag and drop are very hit-or-miss.
>
That's strange... works ok under Sun OS just fine.
> You've heard, of course, about Netscapes difficulties
> with font sizes. It's not easy to get this kind of thing
> right when programming to X.
>
> Unix apps have to roll their own printing. The results
> are uneven. Some apps use termcap and support
> lineprinters and such, but can't do anything much
> beyond that.
>
> Other apps emit postscript. You can support
> many printers by using GhostScript to render
> to a bitmap, then print that. But this is
> second rate in two ways.
>
I've never had a problem printing to my Epson 600 using Ghostscript.
I can write filters to manage different situations. One thing is
certain..
its faster than Windows.
> First of all, an app developer must write rendering
> code twice: once to X, once to PostScript. These
> are very different, and it is *not* easy to produce
> matching results when doing this.
>
> Secondly, the PS approach only handles PostScript
> printers properly; all others are demoted to plain
> bitmap printers, or if they can't do that are just not
> usable.
That is what ghostscript is for... to convert PS to another kind of
printer format,
like ESC/2 or PCL.
>
> There are still a lot of PCL printers out there.
>
> PostScript can't cope because it can't send
> any information *from* the printer
> *to* the app. The app needs to know the
> font metrics of the fonts that will be used
> to print, and on PCL printers those are
> funny HP specific fonts.
>
Not a problem with lp print services.
> > Whats wrong with all the conole apps.
>
> Those are fine for what they do. They aren't
> what desktop users need.
>
> > BTW, users didnt "go" for the good apps, they were forced into accepting
> > Micro$ofts OS's and the apps that run under it.
>
> You've got it backwards. The apps drive
> the chose of OS. Microsoft's coup was in
> getting developers to write for Windows.
>
> [snip]
> > > > > Sure, it's not bad as DR-DOS. But it's still not up
> > > > > to snuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > We all know about the state of the widgets, so lets
> > > > > not belabor that.
> >
> > No, suppose you belabor it.
>
> I did above. :D
>
> > > > > X-Windows is better than nothing, but it's a weak
> > > > > graphics layer. Sure, for server admin tools that
> > > > > remote-display trick is great- but for desktop apps
> > > > > it does matter. X isn't resolution independant,
> > > > > and has weak font support. It's kinda feature
> > > > > poor in general, though there are always
> > > > > add-ons for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, It doesn't provide decent printing services.
> > > > > Nothing like the device independant printing support
> > > > > users now expect.
> > > > >
> >
> > So, tell me what is so damn bad about lp or CUPS?
>
> lp/lpd is a print spooler. A fine thing, really needed
> on a timesharing multiuser system. On a single user
> desktop you don't *need* it, though Windows does
> have one. Macintoshes made do without for years,
> no problem.
>
One thing I do know under windows was that Epson had to write their own
print manager to dump the crappy one in windows. Hooked up an HP 970 to
windows... erratic behaviour. If you want to cancel a print job using
the windows print manager you may end up waiting a long time. That is
why HP put on the printer a nice print cancel button because windows is
just way too slow or stupid to cancel a job on the spot.
> CUPS includes that, some glue, and GhostScript.
> GhostScript's problems I explain above. It's
> better than nothing, but it's not up to Windows
> standards for desktop applications.
>
> > > > > It doesn't have a stable shell to write for. Not unless
> > > > > you count bash. What I mean is something like Explorer
> > > > > or WPS, which an app can integrate itself into.
> >
> > CDE, Motif, KDE, GNOME
>
> KDE, CDE, and GNOME all include
> *different* shell programs; what developer
> wants to put up with that?
>
> Motif has nothing for this. It's a widget set.
>
And a UNIX standardization for uniformity in the industry.
> > > > > It does not have structured storage.
> > > > >
> >
> > Esplain.
>
> Structure storage is a technology for creating
> and manipulating documetn fiels.
>
> It gives you things like documents-within-
> documents and transactions.
>
> It's part of OLE, but it is useful even if you
> don't want to link or embed anything.
>
> [snip]
> > > I don't think I agree. I know BeOS said they made
> > > a "media OS", but it is really hard to see how BeOS
> > > was particularly good at *that*.
> >
> > I dont think you any idea. How long did you use BeOS? Granted, I didnt
> > use it, but I havent heard anyone really knocking the OS.
>
> I have. I've never used it, very few people found
> any use for it at all. If it had any virtues that made it
> *good* as a media OS, I've never heard of them.
>
> > > I think BeOS's basic plan was to produce the OS
> > > Apple couldn't to replace the MacOS. They way they
> > > were going to get marketshare was by being tapped
> > > by Apple.
> >
> > Are you saying that Gsssee started Be so Apple would buy his OS to
> > replace the Mac OS? You better look at some time frames.
>
> What am I missing? The need for a new OS was known
> by 1990 at the latest. What's the problem?
>
> [snip]
> > > Sure.
> > >
> > > Okay, listen up, rest of the industry that lined up against Microsoft:
> > >
> > > You just want an excuse for your own failures! That's
> > > what put MS on top!
> >
> > What? per processor ;licensing put Microsoft on top. And their lousy
> > ethics.
>
> Nope. That was an effect, not a cause.
>
> [snip]
> > > > Competed? Competed/ Let's see. Microsoft sent an employee to a Go
> demo.
> > > > That employee videotaped the demo and went back to Micro$oft.
> > >
> > > My. Is there *anything* Apple does that they won't imitate? :D
> >
> > What? When did Apple videotape a competitor's demo,
>
> Just kidding about that. :D
>
> > wrote a demo that
> > merely reproduced screen movements, pre-announced a non-product, just to
> > freeze the market and kill a competitor?
>
> It appears you now believe PenWindows did not
> exist, again. Pity; I thougth we'd made some progress.
>
> [snip]
> > > As I recall PenWindows and Go were quite different looking;
> > > PenWindows looked at lot like Windows, and Go was
> > > unique.
> >
> > You are sidestepping the issue of Micro$ofts highly unethical behavior.
>
> No, I'm saying that you are full of the thick,
> chunky, brown stuff, actually. :D
>
> [snip]
> > > Anyway, you need to understand that Microsoft vapor
> > > is successful *precisely because* they are so good about
> > > actually producing the things they say they will.
> >
> > Pre-announcing a non-product to freeze the market is illegal, even if
> > they do introduce a product "sometime"
>
> I don't think it is illegal. I think you just don't like it.
>
> [snip]
> > > Is it? Can you think if a second example of
> > > a doublecross, like the IBM one?
> >
> > They stole Stac's compression routines (lost in court).
>
> That's not a doublecross, even if true.
>
> > They stole QuickTime routines (lost in court)
>
> That wasn't Microsoft. Apple and MS both
> used the same subcontractor, and it seems they
> did betray Apple.
>
> But MS was not exactly on Apples side then.
>
> > They froze the pen market to force Go out of businsess.
>
> That's not a double cross, either.
>
> > They put the AARD code into W3.1 to scare people away from DR-DOS (as
> > quoted by MS executives in internal memos/email)
>
> That's a bug. Had they actually built such a thing
> into Windows, it would not be a doublecross either.
>
> > They published MS-DOS with CP/M code in it (IBM ppaid off Kildall with
> > $800,00).
>
> I doubt this one is true at all. Architectural
> differences between the 8080 and the 8086
> make this one seem very improbably to me.
>
> But even if true, it would not be a doublecross.
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 00:27:53 -0700
Roy Culley wrote:
>
> In article <5_EI6.4720$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > "T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> Said Daniel Johnson in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Thu, 03 May 2001
> >> >I hope that even you can admit that any
> >> >law that consigns us all to DOS forevermore
> >> >is a bad law. :D
> >>
> >> That's pathetically moronic, Daniel. I can't believe you put your name
> >> to such silly comments. Do you think we'll believe you're being
> >> light-hearted, and somehow forget you're trying to excuse criminal
> >> behavior?
> >
> > You seem quite fixated on your opinion that Microsoft
> > has transgressed the letter of the law in producing a better
> > product for sale.
>
> Stop it. It hurts laughing this much. Better product? Whale oil
> beef hooked. :-)
LOL!! Reminds of an Abbot and Costello show!
--
V
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux has one chance left.........
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 06 May 2001 07:28:11 GMT
On Sat, 5 May 2001 22:41:49 -0400, pookoopookoo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> But Wine is not an emulator. Currently, most Wine binaries are compiled
>> for i386 and many times with debug enabled. That's why it's slow.
>> Recompile for i686 and turn off debug and it is quite fast.
>>
>> Gary
>
> Isn't there a place to download the binaries precompiled (I'm sure there
> is)? I've never compiled anything in my life =) I think if I had to
> recompile my kernel, I would go into coronary arrest.
>
>
>
I remember the first time I recompiled a kernel, tick the boxes
, want tcp tunnelling ?, no, want ipmasq ? yes ...
All boxes ticked, make the kernel, 20 mins. Run new kernel.
Done.
I'd suggest giving it a go, read the README in /usr/src/linux,
take it easy, be patient, and get the extra stuff, that you don't
need out of that kernel :)
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: MS Must be getting really desperate
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 06 May 2001 07:30:16 GMT
On Sun, 06 May 2001 03:03:06 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 06 May 2001 02:34:42 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 5 May 2001 17:05:36 -0600, kosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Their paid trolls are getting really desperate. This reminds me of the FUD
>>> campaign against OS/2. You would think we were removing their ability to
>>> choose which os they are using by the way they are attacking linux in this
>>> newsgroup.
>>>
>>Yes its quite interesting. The Wintrolls have a definite agenda on COLA
>>I think.
>
>
> Yea. We enjoy pushing your buttons and watching you twitch Terry.
Hahahah, fair enough Blowie, I enjoy doing the same to you.
>
> Flatfish
>
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: MS pushing retailers to hide Linux?
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 06 May 2001 07:32:53 GMT
On Sun, 06 May 2001 03:06:10 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 May 2001 23:09:52 GMT, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Is Micosoft up to their old tricks again.
>>
>>I went into a Best Buy store looking to get the new version of Linux.
>>
>>The last I bought was Red Hat 6.1 and it was displayed prominently in the
>>"operating systems" section along with Mandrake, TurboLinux, and MacMillian
>>distros that took up 3 or 4 shelves next to displays of Windows and Mac Os'.
>>
>>This time the OS section only contained the various Windows operating
>>systems, and I had to ask a clerk where the Linux products were. She stated
>>that "we keep them well hidden" and took me to the "computer books" section
>>where on a single bottom shelf was only the Suse distro for Linux.
>>
>>I know this type of thing is a common business practice, particularly for
>>grocery stores, with cereals, canned foods, etc . . . so don't know if this
>>is necessarily illegal or not, but so MSish.
>>
>
>
> They keep them hidden because they hate processing the returns and
> listening to some poor loser scream at them when he tries to install
> Linux and wipes out his hard drive.
>
Oh yeah, and Stomped_Blowie know this because his wife works at
a Barnes and Noble, according to his own posts.
>
> Most of the large chains are forced to stock certain items due to
> corporate policy.
Yep the coprorate polocy of making a profit.
>
> Ask some sales clerks at random what their customers think about Linux
> and you will hear some pretty funny stories.
Do the same with Windos.
>
> Flatfish
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is paralyzed before it even starts
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 00:42:05 -0700
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> Said GreyCloud in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Sat, 05 May 2001 15:10:51
> >"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> >> Said [EMAIL PROTECTED] in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Sat, 05 May 2001
> >> [...]
> >> >I won't argue that point!!!
> >> >
> >> >Flatfish
> >>
> >> BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA! As if you've ever 'argued a point'. LOL.
> >>
> >> You go troll, now, little flatfishie. Go insult some more people who
> >> know more than a tired old man who never really was very good with
> >> computers.
> >
> >Thanks a lot!
>
> You're welcome.
>
> Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
>
No help needed.
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
--
V
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 06 May 2001 07:40:27 GMT
On Sat, 05 May 2001 21:46:32 -0600, Dave Martel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 06 May 2001 01:07:58 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
> wrote:
>
>>Why not, 62 apps! :-
>
> Geez, no wonder MS is getting so worried.
Yeah, what a supprise!
> Their timing was WAY off on
> this one. It's far, far too late to stop the open-source movement.
>
> I've got this mental image of BG tied across the tracks desperately
> reciting his anti-linux mantra while a trainload of penguins bears
> down on him. Heh heh!
>
Hahahahahahah! LOL
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux disgusts me
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 06 May 2001 07:43:36 GMT
On Sun, 06 May 2001 05:59:57 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Said [EMAIL PROTECTED] in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Sat, 05 May 2001
> [...]
>>Talk to Terry Porter.
>
> Congratulations, Terry.
Thanks Max :)
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windos is *unfriendly*
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 01:04:08 -0700
Terry Porter wrote:
>
> On Sat, 05 May 2001 15:33:38 -0700, GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Well Pete, I don't know what you'd do, but Wife and I are going to
> > remove Win98Se off of the HP Pavillion and try RedHat 7.1. I can't see
> > buying a new computer just to get XP when the current machines only
> > problem is the Win98SE. There's nothing wrong with the hardware so why
> > through it out for XP? We don't need it for demanding games, just
> > business software. Win98SE has been nothing but a major headache in
> > getting things done.
> Hey Greycloud, what do you think about getting another HDD and using that
> to get used to Linux, before trashing Windos ?
>
I've got the room, but she won't care to spend the money on another HDD.
I've already got the whole setup on tape so its no big deal.
> If you do it that way, then you can take your time and ease into
> Linux at a leisurely pace.
I don't think see will have any problems with linux. Shes already used
my Solaris box with CDE and she liked the stability. When things go
haywire under windows she gets very upset and I usually end up taking it
in the shorts.
>
> Id go so far as to recommend making up a new pc minus monitor, mouse
> and kybd, and fitting a couple of NE2000 el cheapo NIC's, because
> then you can even run both boxes, fit samba, and migrate all your
> windows~.001 data files over to the Linux box in time :)
>
Most of the data files I have are on tape or floppy. I can move those
over without problems. Some data files will require sed to fix, but it
is no problem.
> Do you have a good book like 'Running Linux" for reference ?
Yes, I have a few books on linux. Always have to do your homework first
before you can enjoy things.
>
> Just a few thoughts :)
>
> >
> > --
> > V
>
> --
> Kind Regards
> Terry
> --
> **** ****
> My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
> 1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
> Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
> ** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
--
V
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 18:09:23 +1000
From: Ian Pulsford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: where's the linux performance?
Jonathan Martindell wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just a beginning Linux user. I've recently tried Linux-Mandrake 7.2 and
> then Linux-Mandrake 8.0 and also Caldera OpenLinux 2.4. I've been very
> disappointed in the performance of all of these. My machine, I think,
> should be more than adaquate: 708MHz celeron fcppga cpu, 256 meg rams, 10
> gig partition for linux (20 for windows 2000) on Ultra66. I've tried
> running KDE, Gnome, and Icevm. Programs like KMail take over 10 seconds to
As you say, you are a beginner, take the time to learn the system and
tweak it for maximum performance. First remove services unnecessary for
a desktop that are often included with a new install. Then learn how to
make a custom kernel. Then switch to FreeBSD.
IanP
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list by posting to comp.os.linux.advocacy.
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
