Linux-Misc Digest #296, Volume #20 Fri, 21 May 99 21:13:10 EDT
Contents:
Re: UDMA under Linux 2.2.5 on Asus P5A-b (Ali M15xx chipset) (Peter Stein)
LSL problems? (Flyboy105)
Re: Oracle8i for Linux / MySQL 3.22.22 RPMs specifically for Redhat 6.0 (Glibc-2.1 /
kernel 2.2) ("Sean S")
NYC fiber cut: Slashdot, LinuxHQ, others unreachable (tsalagi@|See .sig|)
Re: sound driver installed OK but audio CDs not playing through it (Shem)
Re: unseen files ("J�rgen Exner")
Re: prevent detection of 2nd HD (Michael McConnell)
Re: Can anybody recommend a multi-user email. (Johan Kullstam)
Re: Linux or linux? (Stanislaw Flatto)
Re: a quick newbie question... (Edwin Chacon)
Re: SETI comparisons ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A full-screen cross-hair cursor for X - does it exist? (Erik Rossen)
Re: sound driver installed OK but audio CDs not playing through it (Robert Benkoczi)
Re: Commercially speaking....? (Erik Olson)
Re: A Capitalists view of freedom (Jim Richardson)
Re: A Capitalists view of freedom (Jim Richardson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Stein)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Subject: Re: UDMA under Linux 2.2.5 on Asus P5A-b (Ali M15xx chipset)
Date: 21 May 1999 15:39:50 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~} <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
> Peter> Using 'patch' for updates is alien to me (why not just TAR
> Peter> or RPM the source?).
>
>A full tar is 10--20MB in size. A gzipped patch is just a few hundred
>Kbytes in size (or even smaller). When you're download it through the
>wire, paying a certain amount of money per second of download time,
>that can make a huge difference.
A full tar of just the modified files definitely is not 10--20MB in size.
Some folks like to see the complete source before fiddling around with
'patch'.
> Peter> Can I apply the 2.2.9 patch to 2.2.5 ?
>
>No. patch-2.2.9 is supposed to be applied on source-2.2.8. To get
>source-2.2.8, you may apply patch-2.2.8 to source-2.2.7. And so on.
So should this mean that the available 2.2.9 kernel sources contain
these patches? I acquired the 2.2.9 kernel source and it most definitely
does *NOT* contain the source added by the 2.2.9 UDMA patch.
>If you already have the source code for 2.2.5, you can apply the
>patches in this order:
>
> patch-2.2.6, patch-2.2.7, patch-2.2.8, patch-2.2.9
>
>I did it this way, and it works fine. The source code is too large so
>that I burned it onto a CD-R (together with lots of other stuff to
>exploit the entire capacity) and brought it home to use it on my home
>PC. At that time, the most recent kernel was 2.2.5. Now, the newest
>kernel is 2.2.9. Instead of transfering a 10 MB tarball to my home
>machine through modem or burning another CD-R, I downloaded the
>patches (which fit in 2 floppy disks) and brought the patches home. I
>applied the patches one by one, and volia the source of 2.2.9.
>
> Peter> If not, where do I find the source for 2.2.5 ?
>
>You mentioned RPM. If you're using Red Hat 6.0, the source code for
>2.2.5 is in one of the RPM's.
No, not the kernel source. I'm refering to patches 2.2.6->2.2.9.
>BTW, the source code that comes with Red Hat 6.0 seems to be modified
>(by Red Hat to add its own features), and hence the patch files would
>fail. Using an intact source tree, the patch files all apply
>successfully without any errors.
I have not found any RPMs for the needed patches. Since RedHat just
released 6.0 (2.2.5) one would not expect any RPMs for anything later
to be available yet.
Peter Stein
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Flyboy105)
Subject: LSL problems?
Date: 21 May 1999 23:13:13 GMT
Hey all. Has anyone had problems with LSL?? I have ordered RH 6 twice from
them, both by Priority Mail and neither has arrived. This has been some time
ago since I ordered too, like 2-3 weeks.
Thanks!
====================================================
Kris Knigga
a.k.a The Great JoeBob
http://members.aol.com/Flyboy105
====================================================
------------------------------
From: "Sean S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.databases.oracle.misc,comp.databases.oracle.server,comp.databases,linux.redhat.misc,alt.linux,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Oracle8i for Linux / MySQL 3.22.22 RPMs specifically for Redhat 6.0
(Glibc-2.1 / kernel 2.2)
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:59:23 -0500
I have the 8.0.5 release for linux. I am waiting until they come out with a
newer release of 8i. I just got back from an Oracle class and the teacher
said they are coming out with a "redo log minner" that lets you look at your
logs, among other thinks...
Sean S
Yesterday wrote in message <01bea3a3$59ecf210$24921e18@obi-wan-kanobe>...
>1) Does anyone have their Oracle8i for Linux cd-rom yet?
>2) Where can I get MySQL 3.22.22 RPMs specifically for Redhat 6.0 Linux?
>
------------------------------
From: tsalagi@|See .sig|
Subject: NYC fiber cut: Slashdot, LinuxHQ, others unreachable
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:18:16 GMT
Swiped verbatim from newsguy.backbone.notices:
===============================
Path: spln!newsp.newsguy.com!mdrn
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike)
Newsgroups: newsguy.backbone.notices
Subject: Re: NYC Fiber Cut (Update)
Date: 20 May 1999 13:51:15 -0700
Organization: Extra Newsguy News Service [http://extra.newsguy.com]
Lines: 34
Approved: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <7i1sic$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References: <7i1htd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p-923.newsdawg.com
Xref: spln newsguy.backbone.notices:908
X-Agent-Group: newsguy.backbone.notices
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:32:29 -0400
From: Reid Fishler
Subject: FIBER CUT - NYC
AT&T Local Services (TCG) is reporting "144 Strands of fiber" cut in
NYC,
affecting many customers. Lines have
been down since about 8:30AM, and ETA is about 7PM EDT.
Reid Fishler
In article <7i1htd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
>
>Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:59:24 -0700
>Subject: NYC FIBER CUT
>
>There is a fiber cut in NYC affecting AT&T/TCG and MFS DS3s, possibly more. This
>is a confirmed cut as it is affecting my voice traffic right now, not sure if it
>affecting any Internet traffic but I wouldn't be surprised.
>
>The ETR was 5 to 6 hours @ ~7:30 AM EDT, 5/20/99, which means it should be fixed
>by now, but I have not gotten the "all clear" yet. (I know you are all amazed
>that a fiber cut takes longer to repair than the original estimate.)
>
>I can't believe I beat Sean.... :)
>
>TTFN,
>patrick
>
================================================
--
Mail filtering (Spamgard) in effect. Please put "lemur" in the Subject:
line of your first email response to avoid getting bounced.
Linux isn't free software. It's priceless.
<tsalagi> <@> <netcom.com>
------------------------------
From: Shem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: sound driver installed OK but audio CDs not playing through it
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:52:01 +1200
robert b wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've managed yesterday to install the sound driver in linux (kernel
> 2.0.29, distribution SuSe 4.4.1). I can play and record audio files now,
> but when I try to play audio CDs using workman I am unsuccessful. No
> sound at all, even though if I use the jack from the CD-ROM I can hear
> the music. I can play audio CDs through the soundcard in Windows though.
> If I boot first Windows95 and then Linux (using loadlin), I have no
> problem, I can hear the music through the soundcard, but not when I boot
> directly Linux.
>
> Has anybody encountered this before? Does anyone have any ideas to help
> me? If you respond to my message, please CC my e-mail address too.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> robert
Hi Robert,
I had a similar problem and I recompile the Linux kernel to get my sound
card working. Try dmesg at root and see if the sound driver is loaded during
bootup. If it is not that may be the problem. Have a look at How-to Sound
manual.
Shem
------------------------------
From: "J�rgen Exner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: unseen files
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:25:33 -0700
Reply-To: "J�rgen Exner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...>
> Make sure that your current directory is in your $PATH environment
> variable. The PATH variable should include a segment with just
> a dot in it.
Please see Dajanews or the UNIX FAQ why the CWD should *not* be in your
path.
jue
--
J�rgen Exner
------------------------------
From: Michael McConnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: linux.redhat.misc,alt.uu.comp.os.linux.questions,uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: prevent detection of 2nd HD
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:32:14 +0100
On Fri, 21 May 1999, Paul Grayson wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > How can I prevent Linux (or Windows, for that matter) from knowing about
> > the 2nd hard disk? I would like it to stay spun down, but every now and
> > then linux accesses it for whatever reason. (Windows does too.) The OS
> > is RH5.2.
> >
>
> Disconnect it! :-)
On my system, I've told the BIOS the disc isn't there. Windows believes
that so doesn't touch it. Linux won't touch it unless a partition of sorts
is mounted... (in my case, my entire linux system, so Windows doesn't barf
all over it...again)
-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell [Red Hat 6.0 Available!]
Eridani Star System -- The Most Up-to-Date Red Hat Linux CDROMs Available
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amush.cx/linux/ Fax: +44-8701-600807
------------------------------
From: Johan Kullstam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Can anybody recommend a multi-user email.
Date: 21 May 1999 11:03:49 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I have a Linux machine in a shared lab can anyone recommend a Multi-user
> email client to put on it. to be used in a single guest account.
almost everything in unix assumes one user per account. this might be
difficult. maybe netscape can be configured to ask for user and their
password?
> The other users are mostly computer illiterate, so needs to be nice
> and simple point and click.
set 'em up with one of those web-browser email services like hotmail,
rocketmail, yahoo, netscape &c. they're free and pretty easy to use.
then they can get their mail from just about anywhere.
> The only other requirement is that the Mail must be left on the server
> and not clog up the Hard drive.
can you use NFS or other network file system to access the server
mailboxen? perhaps you can play games with symlinks?
--
johan kullstam
------------------------------
From: Stanislaw Flatto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: aus.computers.linux
Subject: Re: Linux or linux?
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:44:32 GMT
Look a little around. We use in measurments units named after people
and it is accepted to capitalise those. Hertz, Pascal, Newton, Avogadros
number, are just few.
As it is named (rightly or not) after the man that got the whole thing
rolling it is Linux.
Some accepted things are not given to interpretation.
Stanislaw.
Ben Short wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Working on a IS assignment, about an Open Document Management System, and
> the back end of the database can be ported to UNIX or _Linux_.
>
> It may be a stupid question, but I have to get it right. Is it "Linux" or
> "linux".
>
> Help is appreciated.
>
> Ben
> --
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Ben Short http://www.shortboy.dhs.org
> Shortboy Productions mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------
From: Edwin Chacon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: a quick newbie question...
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:46:11 -0700
to me Linux Mandrake 5.2 was the easiest...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm getting ready to take the plunge into the fellowship of Linux users
> and need one bit of advice. I've read docs and FAQs until I'm blue in
> the face and am still unsure about one thing.
>
> I have distributions of Debian GNU/Linux 2.1, Mandrake Linux 5.3 and
> Linux Pro 5.4 all on CD-Rom. I'll be installing Linux on my 2nd physical
> drive and Win95 will reside on my 1st physical (boot) drive. I'll be
> using Linux for general home computing with a little business thrown in
> for good measure. Will also be doing a bit of web surfing and IRC.
>
> My question is this: Of the three distributions I have on hand, which
> would be the least stressful to install and get up and running? Or
> should I use a different distribution than what I have?
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Marc Flenar
> Confirmed Linux newbie and Linux wannabe.....
>
> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
> ---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: SETI comparisons
Date: 22 May 1999 00:21:52 GMT
Seth Van Oort <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> I'd be very interested to have you run both the win client (with both
>> processors, maybe even at normal priority) and the linux client on the
>> dual PIII box and post the results here. I've got dual PII-450's/512 MB RAM,
>> but I have too much real work to do to leave the machine in NT long enough
>> for it to do a whole work-unit. Plus, leaving the win client at
>> normal priority on both processors makes NT _very_ unresponsive.
>>
> I haven't run the SETI code so I don't know how it behaves, but for pure
> processing an OS can't do much of anything except slow it down with
> interrupts and such. I have run the rc5 on both windows98 and linux and
> the linux version was around 1% faster. OSes differentiate themselves in
> their i/o and memory management. From looking at the download page it
> looks like the windows version does a graphic display while the unix
> ones do not. This could make all the difference in the world. Even in
> linux, when compiling large programs you can cut the compile time by
> around 5% (in xwindows) just by redirecting the compiler output to
> /dev/null. This is just a minimal amount of text. (disclaimer: I have a
> grand total of around two hours of windows programming experience, but I
> think this is how it is) Plus windows98 graphics use the win3.1 model
> where all processes share the same memory and have the ability to stall
> each other. I can only assume that for stability's sake, NT does a
> better job which would explain why NT works faster.
Just to clarify, you can choose to have the windows version running all
the time (in the background) or only when the screensaver cuts in. If it
is running all the time, then it only has a graphical display when you
maximize its windows (out of the taskbar). You can also choose to have
the screensaver display go blank after a certain amount of time. So
the fairest test would be to set the code to run all the time and to
set the blank screensaver setting to 0 (so that there is never a
graphical display). To agree with others, I would assume that the
difference is almost completely due to compilation differences, and not
the OS.
--
====================================
Joshua Baker-LePain
Department of Biomedical Engineering
Duke University
------------------------------
From: Erik Rossen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A full-screen cross-hair cursor for X - does it exist?
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:30:38 +0200
Roland Latour wrote:
> I sometimes use a cursor image 171x68, of a shark. Had to use option
> "sw_cursor" in XF86Config because the hardware cursor on most video
> boards is designed for MS cursors. You can create a cursor image and
> mask with 'bitmap'. Make the mask a little bit larger (and filled in)
> than the cursor. The mask controls what on the background shows thru.
> Then just 'xsetroot -cursor cursorfile maskfile'.
I just tried your suggestion with a 100x100 bitmap ("sw_cursor" wasn't
necessary or perhaps it is set by default in XF86_SVGA) and it is pretty
cool except for one small problem - the new cursor appears only when it
is _outside_ of a window. My problem is that I like to work with XTerms
with black backgrounds (easier on the eyes) and a tiny black cursor is
practically invisible on top of these windows. Of course, I could
modify the cursor font file, but I am aggressively lazy. :-) Here is
what I found in xsetroot(1):
-cursor cursorfile maskfile
This lets you change the pointer cursor to
whatever you want when the pointer cursor
is outside of any window. Cursor and mask
files are bitmaps (little pictures), and
can be made with the bitmap(1) program.
You probably want the mask file to be all
black until you get used to the way masks
work.
Thanks very much for the feedback - it was an interesting experiment.
Erik Rossen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Robert Benkoczi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: sound driver installed OK but audio CDs not playing through it
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:21:10 -0700
> I had a similar problem and I recompile the Linux kernel to get my sound
> card working. Try dmesg at root and see if the sound driver is loaded during
> bootup. If it is not that may be the problem. Have a look at How-to Sound
> manual.
Hi Shem,
Thank you for your message. Unfortunately my sound card is working under
Linux, so I have to look for my problem somewhere else... Maybe I should
try with other drivers (my sound card is not a genuine SoundBlaster), what
do you think?
robert
------------------------------
From: Erik Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Commercially speaking....?
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,linux.help,linux.news.groups,uk.comp.os.linux
Date: 21 May 1999 18:40:51 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Alistair Cunningham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In uk.comp.os.linux Phil Bousfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> (1) What is the right model(s) for a commercial company to market Linux
>> products in the storage management space?
> That depends on the relative merits to you of:
> 1. Generating a revenue stream.
> 2. Achieving market penetration.
> If 2 is important, GPL is the way to go. This will give you a very
> large number of users. You can then sell them support, documentation,
> fancy packaging, etc. You also gain the good will of the Open source
> community, who will probably contribute bug reports, patches, etc. Do
I love it, "GPL is the way to go" coming from a @gnu.org person this
sounds just a bit biased to me.
> If all you care about is earning revenue, the best model is probably
> that of the Open source sound modules (www.4front-tech.com/), or the
I wouldn't exactly say 4Front has "gained the good will of the Open
source community". It is my belief from what I read that most of the
Linux community that cares about audio holds 4Front in contempt.
>> (2) What model(s) should we avoid?
> If you're going to claim that your program is 'Open source', do it
> right. Don't do what Apple did, and claimed that their product was
> open source, and then put in lots of clauses limiting what can be done
> with the code. This made them very unpopular. Either a truly open
> license, such as GPL, or commercial - not in between.
IMO Apple was trying to pay lip service to the Open Source crowd and their
attempt back fired. The lesson learned here is any commercial open source
initative had better be genuine.
>> (3) What source code access is appropriate or necessary?
> Linux is still a young product, and developing quickly. If you don't
> release source code, you're going to have to release new binaries
...
> allow distributions to include your program seamlessly, if you release
Now why is allowing "distributions to include your program" a good thing?
This might be the popular way to do things, but does this have to be the
only way? The way these open source types talk make a person believe the
book on commercial Linux success has already been written. All we have
seen is the first chapter. Saying a commercial Linux company has to make
their money on support IMO is utterly foolish.
> your program under an open license. I'm a Debian developer, and I can
> tell that we often tune the source code of a package, and contribute
> our changes to the upstream author (you).
> You'll probably find that releasing source code is a positive
> experience for both you and your customers. You gain the good will of
> the Linux community, and they gain the ability to tune the software to
> their needs, and contribute back to you.
Ya, just like the Mozzila project was a "positive experience".
They only had like 36 active external developers vs hundreds of internal
developers. My bet is that when Netscape went open source the folks at
Microsoft had a lot more than 36 people actively poking around and
inspecting it for ways to break it, Borg'ify it, and such.
> Of course, if you choose a closed license, you can't really release
> source code.
A company shouldn't go open source because it is the trendy thing to do.
IMO the only reason to go open source is if the company honestly thinks the
benefits of doing so outweigh the benefits of not. Now a hardware company
doing open source drivers makes a lot of sense. The Red Hat distro model
makes a lot of sense for that business. Most companies the other business
models doesn't make any sense.
The open source community is founded on trust and integration of that into
the greedy/corrupt business world isn't going to be seamless. When it comes
to business I believe paranoia is the prudent choice.
Picture this, your company releases its product open source GPL hoping to
makes its money from support or some other method. My company decides to
hijack your open source project. My company throws more developers at it
than your company and we go semi proprietary like SendMail Inc. We get
a lot of vulture capital, we buy a big booth at Linux expo with the biggest
LCD screens and comfiest couchs. People think we are cool. We actively
release some unimportant stuff GPL, just be a headache to your company and
also to gain consumer mind share that WE are the active developers. Then we
will go ultra proprietary with some stuff that our customers will pay a lot
of money for. When we go IPO and make millions on our options we thank your
company for the 40 man years of code you gave us for free.
Now this is a nightmare scenario I hope never happens to any company, but the
utter disreguard the GPL has for the commercial sector and their priorities
will let this sort of thing happen. Freedom for the user my @$$, what about
my freedom for my company to make a profit?
This is what I think needs to happen:
* someone has to come up with a generic open source license that addresses
things important to a commercial company. Freedom for the company and
not the user.
* someone has to come up with a business model that doesn't rely on support
for profit. Saying the successful Linux companies do this is fine, but
it doesn't cut it. A broader and more far ranging plan is needed or
commercial companies will simply ignore the open source movement.
* a positive example needs to be made of a company that uses this "new non
traditional open source model." It has to be highly profitable enterprise
and this success woudln't of happened if it wasn't for open source.
Netscape is a negative example. Red Hat is distribution model and is an
irrelevant model for most other companies.
> Above all, please don't do as Apple or Troll Tech have done, and
> released the source code, but under limited conditions. This won't gain
> anyone very much, especially you.
Yes, there can only be one license! The GPL.
Doesn't this sound a lot like Microsoft's there can only be one OS attitude?
The GNU people are afraid of license dillution. Too many predominant
licenses causes consumer confusion and the GPL looses its monopoly and
potency. Just look at http://news.freshmeat.net/ the GPL license is
becoming synonymous with Linux. Yikes! This I believe is actually the
reason for the conspiracy behind the "GNU/Linux" name game. It is not about
demanding respect and recognition for all the free GNU developers, it
is about getting/retaining the GNU mindshare in the publics eye. They
want to write the rules and this sort of thing scares me.
erik olson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: A Capitalists view of freedom
Date: 22 May 1999 00:10:07 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 20 May 1999 19:25:47 +0200,
David Kastrup, in the persona of
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brought forth the following words...:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED],.com (Mike Willett LADS LDN X7563) writes:
>
>> This is why a see no hypocracy in supporting gun control in the UK
>> and continuing the right to own guns in the US. We're starting from
>> two different places. However, I still don't understand why the American's
>> don't at least have some sort of gun register or checks. Can I buy
>> missiles without a licence >
>
>Oh, things are getting better in the U.S. With a just recently passed
>law, juveniles will no longer be permitted to buy half-automatic
>weapons like Uzi machine guns.
erm, you are aware of course, that it is allready illegal for juveniles
to buy uzis? no new law was required...
You weren't just spreading FUD were you?
Jim Richardson
www.eskimo.com/~warlock
All hail Eris
"Linux, where do you want to go tomorrow?"
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: A Capitalists view of freedom
Date: 22 May 1999 00:10:10 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 20 May 1999 21:26:08 +0200,
David Kastrup, in the persona of
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brought forth the following words...:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Seebach) writes:
>
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> David Kastrup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Seebach) writes:
>> >> You may be less likely to die, net, if you have a gun, because most
>> >> of the time, people "defending" themselves with guns don't fire them
>> >> - most people aren't stupid enough to wait around to be shot at.
>>
>> >So you would be of the opinion that a criminal armed with a gun
>> >telling me to pass my wallet will, if I grasp at a gun as an answer,
>> >turn his back on me and walk away?
>>
>> Not necessarily... But he might.
>>
>> Roughly speaking, if you resist with anything but a gun, you're more likely
>> to get hurt than if you don't resist. If you resist with a gun, you're less
>> likely to get hurt than if you don't resist.
>
>Don't be silly. There is no reason to shoot me if I don't resist. If
>he was planning to kill me, anyway, there would be no point in asking
>me to pass the wallet first.
you assume that the criminal is rational. Not a good assumption, especially
when many of them are drug addicts. A behaviour type not known for
rationality.
>
>Of course, if in the act of me passing my wallet, he will notice that
>I have a gun strapped to my side, he might consider killing me before
>turning his back. So if I carry a gun, the option of "not resisting"
>might be considerably more dangerous than if I don't.
>
You can argue with your opinions all day long, doesn't change the stats
though, does it?
--
Jim Richardson
www.eskimo.com/~warlock
All hail Eris
"Linux, where do you want to go tomorrow?"
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